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Even though the Tamil Nadu government's anti-conversion bill awaits clearance from Governor P S Ramamohan Rao, 51 dalit families in the southern Madurai district of Tamil Nadu have threatened to convert to Islam. The dalits are upset at the continued denial of land allotted to them in 1989.

The state government's anti-conversion ordinance evoked strong responses from various quarters. While the Bharatiya Janata Party and its friends welcomed it wholeheartedly, other parties and religious minorities expressed strong reservations about it.

R Thirumalvalavan, the man who heads the Dalit Panthers of India, was among those who condemned the ordinance, labelling it anti-dalit. He spoke to Shobha Warrier in Chennai. Excerpts:

You described the anti-conversion ordinance as anti-dalit. Why?

Not only in Tamil Nadu, but all over India, dalits are subjected to caste-based atrocities and discrimination. Till now no government has come forward with any law or ordinance to put an end to such atrocities. Let me ask, why?

In some places in Tamil Nadu, dalits were not even allowed to file nomination papers for the panchayat elections. Those who tried to defy the orders of the upper castes and filed nominations were cruelly murdered. In another place, dalits were forced to eat human excreta. Some upper-caste men urinated into the mouths of dalits in some places.

When these kinds of atrocities are committed against dalits, the Tamil Nadu government did not feel the need to have an ordinance to punish the guilty Hindus. Unable to bear such atrocities, many dalits decided to move away from Hinduism. Under the new anti-conversion ordinance, they would be punished. They would be punished under the term 'forcible conversion'. How can you justify such an ordinance? That's why I say this is anti-dalit and anti-Constitution.

Why anti-Constitution?

Ours is a secular country. Our Constitution should not protect any particular religion. This ordinance is to safeguard the Hindu religion. If the ordinance is passed, dalits lose an opportunity to escape from the atrocities that they are subjected to in Hinduism.

Maybe the family that converts to Christianity does not get any benefits, but I am sure future generations will definitely reap the benefits and have social security. They will not be subjected to caste atrocities.

You also said in one of your statements that your party does not believe in conversion...

We actually do not believe in religion at all. We do not have any faith in any religion. So, according to me, there is no need to convert from one religion to another.

But a majority of people, and that includes dalits, believe in religion, in God.

Yes, I agree with you. That's why I am talking for them. We are not working for ourselves. We work for that majority of humanity who have faith in religion and God. I do not want to deny them their rights.

So you personally do not believe in any religion?

I don't have any religion. So I need not convert myself. But most dalits have faith in God and religion, and if they feel like converting to another religion, it is their right to do so. If they want to escape from the atrocities committed on them by Hinduism, they have every right to do so. Nobody can interfere in that.

So the inequality prevalent in Hinduism is responsible for all the conversions that you see among dalits today?

Exactly! In Hinduism, dalits are not treated like human beings at all. It has an inhuman approach to dalits.

The chief minister says the ordinance is only against forcible conversions...

How do you identify what's forcible?

Do you fear about the law being misused?

How was POTA [the Prevention of Terrorism Act] used? There is no doubt about the fact that it will be misused. In a village called Koothirambakkam in Kancheepuram district, dalits were ill-treated for several years by Hindu upper-caste men. Neither the government nor the state machinery did anything to help them. But when they decided to convert to Islam, the government decided to put a stop to that.

At one of your press conferences you said there is an ulterior motive behind the ordinance being brought in such haste. Are mass conversions that are taking place at various places the reason?

Politically, I feel Jayalalithaa wants to please the BJP government. She wants to show the BJP that hers is a rule of Hinduism, that the AIADMK is nothing but a Hindu government. See the people who welcomed the ordinance and congratulated her: the shankaracharya [of Kanchi Kamakoti Peetham], Hindu Munnani leader Rama Gopalan and L Ganesan of the BJP.

I would say this ordinance is against dalits and not against the [religious] minorities. Christians and Muslims are only insulted by the ordinance, but the affected will be the dalits. This will affect the good work that is being done by Christian and Muslim missionaries in remote areas for the dalits. Why are they doing service in such areas? For conversion. When they find that conversion is difficult, their work also will slow down. So, who will be affected? The dalits. They will be denied education, medicine, and other such facilities.

That is what the government says, that the missionaries lure poor people with money.

It is not happening in India alone. The missionaries go to all parts of the world and do service, and in the process, convert people. They have lots of money, and that is why they are doing this.

Now, let me ask. Why did Dr Ambedkar convert to Buddhism? To escape the caste atrocities that were prevalent in Hinduism. So there is a historical reason for conversion. Wherever there is religion, there will be conversion. This is not the first time in the history of religion that conversion is taking place. There were conversions among Saivaities and Vaishnavites. So this is nothing new.

My question is, why do you want to deny the dalits a better life?

But converted dalits are also not treated equally in Christianity.

That is not a religious problem. It's a social or economic problem. For the emancipation of dalits, conversion is not the solution. Conversion is only a way of escapism from the worst elements of Hinduism. Dalits are the outcast elements of Hinduism. What is needed is social and economic independence.

Photograph: Sreeram Selvaraj

Image: Rahil Shaikh

The Rediff Interviews