The Patrick French Chat
Patrick French, the 31-year-old author of Liberty or Death, the much-discussed book on the freedom struggle, logged in from London on Tuesday evening, accompanied, as he said in his opening remarks, with bhelpuri and Thums Up. The historian was in fine form, and the Chat transcript pulls no punches in its assessment of the Mahatma's legacy.
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:7 IST)
This is Patrick French sending greetings to the world from England. We've got the bhelpuri, we've got the Thums Up, now let's have the chaat.
Zaid (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:56 IST)
Mr French: What inspired you to write the book L&Death..... And how did it begin??
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:12 IST)
ZAID - The answer can be found at www.harpercollins.co.uk
rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:55 IST)
Hello Mr French... Have you got stuck someplace? What are the books you referenced to write this book..
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:10 IST)
Rangeela -- I got stuck in a brief time warp but now I'm here with you. There are about 100 books listed in the bibliography of Liberty or Death which you should consult. Also the source notes for primary documents.
Anand (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:0 IST)
Mr French: You say that Jinnah was a true secularist. So, what was the turning point for him to join the Muslim League. Was it when Liaquat Ali Khan came to London and asked him to join the League? I mean to say at what stage did he feel, enough of staying together with Hindus. And Muslims must demand their own homeland????Which year??
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:15 IST)
ANAND - What I actually say in the book is that Jinnah remained a secularist of sorts until his death, but also that at times he was willing to use communal antagonism in a strategic way. I would say that he was willing to countenance a united India up until the departure from Delhi of the Cabinet Delegation in the summer of 1946.
Syed Ali (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:13 IST)
Patrick French: I haven't read your book -- I was put off by The Sunday Times review -- but one of my colleagues tells me that it is an extremely shallow book. Perhaps, you should stick to adventurers like Francis Younghusband, rather than take on someone like the Mahatma. I read your pallid response in Outlook too. Did you actually do original research before producing this book? Or is it a mere recitation of old facts, distilled in biased light?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:18 IST)
SYED ALI - Liberty or Death does deal with adventurers. I did extensive primary research for the book, as well as conducting interviews in India, Bangladesh and Pakistan. The Sunday Times review described it as 'immensely scholarly', so I'm not sure how you square that with the observation of your colleague.
Sharon (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:46 IST)
Hello Mr French, Sir what makes you call Gandhi a wily politican? How do you substantiate that statement?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:21 IST)
SHARON - If you examine the decisions that Gandhi took over the internal operation of the Congress (opposing Subhas Chandra Bose's second term as president, or ordering the dismissal of the Congress ministries when the 2WW broke out), or if you look at his methods of negotiation with successive viceroys, I think it's impossible to think he was anything else. Certainly his own colleagues such as Patel and Nehru did not think him the other-worldly saint that people believe him today.
Ramkrishnan (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:5 IST)
Mr Rangeela: You have strong views against Muslims. Where are u chatting from????
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:23 IST)
RAMKRISHNAN - What on earth makes you think I have strong views against Muslims? I'm chating from Europe.
Anand (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:20 IST)
Mr Patrick French: Lot has been talked about Jinnah's political life. What was his personal life like? Who were his closest friends? What was his love like? I remember that he married in his late 30s. What was the reason? Who were the women in his life? We do not get a chance to read about this subject. Can you throw some light???
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:26 IST)
ANAND - Jinnah had a very unhappy personal life. His wife died young, and his friendships with other Indian politicians such as Sarojini Naidu withered during the 1930s. I go into this in some detail in Liberty or Death, as I believe his personal emotions were significant in the way that he approached politics.
Advait (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:20 IST)
Mr French: If one uses "communal antagonism" in a strategic way I think Jinnah should be a "Opportunist" as well as "willy" and lastly whither secularism ??
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:29 IST)
ADVAIT - Are you sure you mean 'willy' rather than 'wily'? Sure there were ideological differences between them. My point is that Bose was democratically elected in 1939, but that Gandhi used great cunning to get rid of him, by ordering the CWC to withdraw cooperation from Bose.
Advait (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:26 IST)
Mr French : With the known ideological differences for means of Independence between Gandhi and Bose isn't it natural for Gandhi to oppose Bose I don't think thats being "willy" ....
Azim (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:26 IST)
Mr French: What was the turning point for Indian Muslims before the Partition to support the League. In the 1936-37 elections League did not win 4 % of Muslim votes. What was the reason then that Muslims voted 90 % enmasse for the League in the 1946 elections. What wrong policy did Congress party adopt in ten years time that dissociated them from the Muslims???
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:33 IST)
AZIM - The Congress leadership - and Nehru in particular - failed to take Muslim political demands seriously, and used the Congress ministries post 1937 to introduce policies which were perceived, rightly or wrongly, as essentially Hindu. By 1945/46, the majority of Muslims saw a strong vote for the League as being the best way of ensuring a coherent Muslim voice at the centre. I believe that many Muslims voted for the League at this time without having any clear idea of what 'Pakistan' would mean in practice.
rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:32 IST)
Mr French, About Gandhi's personal life.Did he really sleep naked with two young girls beside him to test his power of celibacy.Is it true or crap.I think if I do the same thing now the girls's parents will kill me.
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:35 IST)
RANGEELA - I wish you the best of luck in your bedtime arrangements. However Gandhiji did refer to himself as 'God's eunuch', so you might bear that in mind. Yes, it is true that he regularly slept with naked girls as a way of testing his vow of celibacy. However by this time in his life he had become rather eccentric.
The secret R (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:33 IST)
Mr French: How much would you say Subhas Chandra Bose contributed to the freedom struggle and do you think he is still alive? Or is that just an Elvis theory?
Anand (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:34 IST)
Mr French: Do you think that the departure of Bose from national politics was a great loss to the country????
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:38 IST)
THE SECRET R and ANAND - No, he is not sharing an apartment with Elvis. I prove conclusively from secret intelligence documents that I obtained from the British Foreign Office that Bose died in an air crash. I think that although Netaji Bose had considerable powers of leadership, he was politically naive, and had worrying leanings towards right-wing politics.
rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:37 IST)
Mr Patrick, I just want to ask you whether it is true that Muslims never were happy with freedom.They thought that freedom means ruled by Hindus. British are better. You must done a lot of research.You are not answering this simple question.How many Hindus and how many Muslims died during the freedom struggle. I just want the numbers.
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:42 IST)
RANGEELA - There is no evidence to support your theory that Indian Muslims preferred British rule. Jinnah was a staunch nationalist throughout his career, including the period when he was an eminent Congress politician. During the massacres of 1947-48, around one million people died, but due to the administrative chaos there are no exact statistics. It would appear that in terms of numbers, a greater proportion of Muslims died. It should be remembered that the Sikh community also came off very badly.
Azim (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:40 IST)
Mr French: I want to know, what wrong policies were adopted by the Congress ministry. Was it banning of cow slaughter? Was it that Hindus used to take processions from mosques? And the most important giving Hindi more importance than Urdu language..
atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:41 IST)
Rangeela lacks colour in his monochrome monotonous mediocre mindless statements.
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:45 IST)
AZIM - Yes, those kind of things. But I'm not saying they were wrong policies, simply that they were perceived that way by many Muslims. Also, the mass contacts campaign and the anti-League speeches turned many influential UP Muslims against the Congress, who had previously been sympathetic. Greetings to atheist.
Ramkrishnan (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:36 IST)
Mr French: Whatever you may say about Gandhi. But can you tell me why the masses always followed him. there must be some magic. Can you specify, why after Mahatma Gandhi, there could be no leader of his stature in the history of Independent India? And till this day, very few people would like to criticize Gandhi openly???
Ramkrishnan (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:37 IST)
Mr French: Is it true that he slept with one of his granddaugthers to terst his celibacy????
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:49 IST)
RAMKRISHNAN - He slept in the same bed as his great-niece Manu, whom he sometimes referred to as his granddaughter. Don't forget it is much easier to be a leader of great stature when you are fighting foreign colonialists than when you are running an independent country. That may explain some of the problems of the last 50 years. However I would say that Pandit Nehru was a leader of comparable stature.
rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:42 IST)
Mr Pat, What do you mean by right wing? Are the British rulers not right wing?When you talk of toughness it is right wing? Common Subhas was charismatic and a great leader?Yeah he leant towards Hitler for freedom.What is wrong in that? Gandhi was licking the feet of the British. Subhas was trying to do that by holding the heads of all Indians high. Any right thinking person will go for the second option
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:51 IST)
RANGEELA - I think you should stop typing and read a copy of Liberty or Death. It will answer all your questions, including those on the Sardar.
atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:48 IST)
Mr French, you have criticised Gandhi, but can you explain why he remained so popular? Also, how relevant are your references to his eating and sleeping habits. Indians today hail Gandhi for freedom and non-violence, rare is the Indian who follows Gandhi's dietary and bowel practices. So is not your criticism misplaced?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:55 IST)
ATHEIST - Gandhi is certainly the central figure in the freedom movement, and had mass support, especially in north India. In my book I only mention his eating and sleeping habits in passing, as they illustrate something about his character. Liberty or Death is mainly about the political events of the 1940s, and the aftermath of Partition.
Zaid (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:52 IST)
Mr Patrick French: Do you think the appointment of Liaqat Ali Khan as the Finance minister in the interim government was a big mistake. And that is why Sardar Patel was determined to have a separate country rather than staying with muslims???
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:58 IST)
ZAID - It was not a mistake to make Liaquat finance minister. He was a very competent politician. It was not instrumental in pushing Patel towards separation, although it is true that the problems in making the interim government function made matters worse.
rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:44 IST)
Hey atheist, Are you from South.You do not understand the pains of Partition. I think if you do not know history keep your mouth and brains shut. Hey Pat, What do you think about Gandhi's supporting the Khilafat movement. It was never related to the nation. Do you think he was trying to appease the Muslims. Do you think this was a wrong move? I think if this a public chat and you have really done some research you will be answering my pertinent questions. People start feeling uneasy when questions are asked frankly. I think Pat you should not feel uneasy.
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:0 IST)
RANGEELA - Why are you being so rude to Atheist? I think that the support Gandhi gave to the Khilafat movement was essentially opportunistic, and had a destructive effect.
atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:56 IST)
A point to note: all leaders must reflect their people, yet must be also different. If Gandhi had been just like any other, he would have remained that way, a non-entity. Perhaps it was his complexities and what you call fads that made him the person he was. So how wrong was he then? He still achieved more than most? Also, I have no disregard for Jinnah, but as has been noted, this Muslim leader was only Muslim by birth. Yet his actions mark him to be only the leader of the Muslims. Maybe it was his aloof, aristocratic bearing that saw him achieve his goals? Yet, their legacies were different, and secular Jinnah's legacy is a theocratic state, where even a Shia Jinnah would have been hounded today? Now, don't you think Gandhi deserves more respect than what you have accorded him?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:5 IST)
ATHEIST - I do have considerable respect for Gandhi, as I make clear in my book. He was certainly good at generating mass popular support. As for Jinnah, it is worth remembering that he had huge popular support among many Muslims by the mid-1940s, and that they did not see him as aloof. Also that his vision of Pakistan was that it would be a homeland from which Muslims could come and go at leisure. He never wanted it to become a theocratic state, and he hoped it would co-exist in harmony with India.
feni (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:1 IST)
Mr. French ! Sorry, I'm late on this chat. But did you expect the reaction you got when you were writing the book ?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:7 IST)
FENI - Hello and welcome to the chat. No. I did not expect such a hostile reaction in India to my book. However, I am sure when people have read it cover to cover they will feel happier with what it says.
Zaid (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:4 IST)
Mr French: Is it true that even for appointing a peon in his office Sardar Patel had to ask for permission of Liaqat Ali Khan????
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:8 IST)
ZAID - No, he did not have to make that request to Liaquat. The Sardar had almost total control over the Government of India from September 1946 - more power than Nehru or even the Viceroy, in many respects.
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:11 IST)
RANGEELA & ATHEIST - Perhaps you should meet for a cup of tea and discuss your differences?
feni (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:12 IST)
Mr. French ! I haven't read the book myself. But can you throw light on why writers in the West (supposedly a liberal breed) are so obsessed about Mr. Gandhi's sleeping habits ?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:15 IST)
FENI - Interestingly, none of the reviewers in Britain and the USA have mentioned Gandhi's sleeping habits. It is only in India that people seem to be obsessed about them. They take up a few lines in a 500 page book, yet seem to have generated an inappropriate volume of interest. I'll take 2 more questions and then sign off.
atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:12 IST)
Mr French, could you tell us what made Gandhi so popular and charismatich with the millions of Indians. There has been no one like him, and others' popularity was derived from Gandhi's blessing, esp Nehru, who in turn annointed Indira, and so on
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:19 IST)
ATHEIST - I don't think that any of the major politicians - British, Congress or Muslim League - were especially far sighted in their decisions in 1946-47. Also, it was Gandhi's own actions that were instrumental in provoking Muslim demands for a breakaway homeland, so he cannot be absolved from blame any more than the others. As for his popularity, I think that he was very good at using the media, he had great personal charisma, and that he appealed to an idiom that had huge resonance, especially among north Indian Hindus.
Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:18 IST)
Patrick, do you think a day would come when they would tear down statues of Gandhi and Nehru (esp. Nehru) in India like they did in Russia?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:21 IST)
GURUJI - Welcome to the Chaat. I think it is most unlikely that statues of Gandhi and Nehru will ever be torn down.
atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:20 IST)
According to some historians, Jinnah on his deathbed called Pakistan the greatest blunder in his life. Is this true?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:23 IST)
ATHEIST - Jinnah was unhappy with the version of Pakistan that he got in 1947, and of course with the reciprocal massacres and migrations. He did not, however, say it was a blunder, no.
RRB (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:22 IST)
Mr. French...just joined the chat...may have missed something... the main criticism against Gandhi seems to be that he was too 'Hindu' in his underlying objectives..Is that right? I believe that he was responsible for turning an elitist movement of the Congress (by guys who had far greater freedom than Indians in 'free' India) into a mass movement with the promise of social change vis-a vis caste system/rural-urban. The Congress essentially used him to ride onto power. The momentum he created for voluntary change was his great achievement, it unfortunately died with him (maybe why he was killed) If he hadn't India would have completed the transformation. I don't think one could take that credit away from him...
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:25 IST)
RRB - O.K. a quick answer. Yes, he did turn the Congress into a mass movement, and take it away from its elitist base. However by the late 1930s he was pursuing an eccentric agenda which caused as many problems as it solved.
Floyd (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:31 IST)
Looks like I entered pretty late! He is gone already!
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:33 IST)
FLOYD - I can't resist. I was just heading off to have a cup of tea with Salman, but will return (like Frank Sinatra) for one last farewell question.
Floyd (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:38 IST)
Thaks Mr. French for being so considerate. Tell me if you do not mind, what made you come back ?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:42 IST)
FLOYD - The arrival of Chokshi. What else?
Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:40 IST)
I like your views Patrick. Very interesting indeed. Good to know that someone published something that didn't make out Gandhi to be such a hero (a feeling that I subscribe to). Gotta definitely read the book. What was the name again? Liberty or Death. Right?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:43 IST)
GURUJI - Thanks. Liberty or Death is the title, distributed in India by Rupa. There are more details about the book at www.harpercollins.co.uk
Floyd (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:47 IST)
Mr. French could you please tell me how to get your book. I want to read it as I missed out your views in this chat.
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:50 IST)
FLOYD - Try a bookshop. Over and out.
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:29 IST)
ALL CHATTERS - This is Patrick French signing off and sending best wishes to all who participated. I hope you enjoy the book. Jai Hind! Pakistan Zindabad! Goodbye.
Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:55 IST)
nothing there at the site. what do i look under?
Mr Patrick French (Tue Sep 9 1997 22:4 IST)
GURUJI - This is Munshi Abdul Saleem speaking, Mr French's personal assistant. I am at liberty to inform you sir that you should go to http://www.harpercollins.co.uk/index1.htm and click on the word interview on the leftside.
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