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Other Conversations during the Patrick French Chat

Prashant Joglekar (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:24 IST)
Gandhi's eminence cannot be teared to pieces just by one book

Hitesh (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:26 IST)
But you know what Prashant I have been wondering why have we been treating politicians as spiritual leaders and putting them on a pedestal?

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:27 IST)
Hi Prashant,\ I do not want to say much 'cause I have not read the book. I do not support G fully. I feel he did not act decisively under certain situation.

Hitesh (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:30 IST)
Rangeela: I agree with what you say, but then I wouldn't even call Jinnah a secularist!

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:30 IST)
Hitesh, I think you are absolutely right. See during partition it was biting winter. Hindu refugees from Pak were coming over. They did not have a place to stay. They decided the mosques were empty and they can stay. But Gandhi ordered them out. If this is not appeasement what is it. If a mosque is a Gods place then any life can enter it. Gandhi was more partial to Moslems.

Junaid (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:33 IST)
Rangeela: It is a myth that Hindus were not allowed inside the mosques. I remember that my grandfather told me that refugee Hindus were enteering forcefully into the mosques for shelter

Hitesh (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:35 IST)
Junaid: Ah well my friend its good to see you again. So how have you been? You know something Juniad I have often wondered why is Sardar Patel the unsung hero of the freedom struggle? Why don't we give him an equal footing as much as we do to Gandhi and Nehru? I mean was it because he wasn't good at PR?

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:48 IST)
Hi Mr French.I think you have struck the bulls eye.But I do not accept your statments about Jinnah.Both were sides of the same coin

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:49 IST)
Junaid, Why not. Muslims of Pak kicked, killed and raped.We should have done that in India.You should be happy we did not do that.You should daily pray to Gandhi, Nehru for that.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:50 IST)
Hi Mr french ..Where are you.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 19:53 IST)
Gandhi cheated crores of Hindus. He told that there will be no Partition. But it took place. He could not prevent the killings of Hindus. Muslims talk about Babri. What about the thousands of temples demolished in Pak. Muslism do not be hypocrites. I am proud to come from a religion which is the only one in the world which could not be wiped out. Muslims ruled for 1000 years. They tried but could not wipe out Hinduism. They realised that Hindus can give fire for fire. Beware.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:5 IST)
Mr French, I do not think that Jinnah was solely responsible for Pak. If not Jinnah somebody else. The Moslem psyche is the same all over the world when they are in a minority. It was the Hindus who gave their blood for the freedom. The Muslims were fully supporting the British. They were waiting like hawks. Once the British wanted to quit the Muslims struck.The same is the case in Bosnia, Russia. Moslems as a minority are always like that. I think the Indians know that now they are wary of that through and through. I think the Moslems cannot divide India again never. This time the Hindus know what to do with them.

Ramkrishnan (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:5 IST)
Mr Rangeela: You have strong views against muslims. Where are you chatting from????

Advait (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:8 IST)
Hey Guys Whither Mr. French ???

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:8 IST)
Hey Rama, yeah. Because I hate their hypocrisy. They talk about secularim when they are in a minority and talk about Islamic governance when they are in a majority. Islam never talks like this. I think a majority of the Muslims are not following the Koran.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:10 IST)
Hey French....You have struck the Bulls eye.Good...But Jinnah was not as good you projected him to be. Both were the two sides of the same coin

Advait (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:10 IST)
Hello Mr. French. How are you doing today ??

Anand (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:10 IST)
Mr French: Do you feel that since Gandhi completely sidelined Jinah in Indian politics after Tilak's death. He went to join Muslim League....

Ramkrishnan (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:12 IST)
Mr French: How important role Sir Syed AHmed has played in the creation of Pakistan, can you answer in short, pleaseeeeeeee?

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:13 IST)
Mr French, What do you think about Gandhi behaviour in Naokhali. Thousands were massacred and thousands were converted. He behaved so peevishly. If tomorrow my brother is killed, I am not going to leave the murderers. Gandhiji's ahimsa was pure cowardice. He understood the Indians. The Hindus have been ruled by the Moslems for 1000 years.They were tired of deaths. So Gandhi put his ahimsa and it was lapped up. I hold Gandhi responsible for the deaths of all the Hindus during the Partition. Not Jinnahs.Gandhi prevented us from giving fire for fire. He poured water on the burning hearts of Hindus. The Mahatma...

Sharon (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:14 IST)
Mr French: Can you please explain WHY DO YOU THINK GANDHI WAS A WILY POLITICIAN?

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:18 IST)
Mr French, According to the books, the majority of the people who died in the freedom struggle were Hindus. Don't you think that Jinnah was watching like a hawk.Once the British decided to leave, he asked for a separate country. Be pally with the British. Poor Gandhi, so innocent he never saw through the game.

Advait (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:26 IST)
Mr French : With the known idealogical differences for means of Independence between Gandhi and Bose isn't it natural for Gandhi to oppose Bose I don't think thats being "willy" ....

Ramkrishnan (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:28 IST)
Mr French: Is it true that he was involved with the nightingale of India? There are lot of rumours but no confirmed reports. Do you have some substantial things to tell about the affair???

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:30 IST)
Mr French, You must have read so many books to write this one.Can you tell me how many Hindus and how many Muslims died in the freedom struggle.Gandhi was never a saint. So was Jinnah. But one has been potrayed as a saint. Subash was a great leader. A selfless one. Really. If Subash would have been the president there would not have been any Partition.

Anand (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:34 IST)
Mr French: Do you think that departure of Bose from national politics was a great loss to the country????

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:35 IST)
Mr Patrick, I just want to ask you whether it is true that Muslims never were happy with freedom. They thought that freedom means ruled by Hindus. British are better. So when they realised that freedom was near they voted enmasse for Muslim League. Very cunning. Very shrewd.

Advait (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:35 IST)
Mr French : Ooops that was a typing mistake...What in your opinion must have prompted Gandhi to do so. ( Apart from feeling threatened by Bose's dominance). Also, I don't see point in your argument that Gandhi's entourage costed ... I am trying to argue on the economics of the issue. How else do you think one can help common mass identify him as one of them. Don't you think by traveling first class one can be removed from the massess given the phsycology..( Please ignore a typing mistakes I am no expert ..)

Ramkrishnan (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:37 IST)
Mr French: Is it true that he slept with one of his granddaugthers to terst his celibacy????

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:39 IST)
Mr Pat, I feel that Gandhi was the shrewdest brains around. He understood the innocent and trusting Hindus. They were tired mentally and physically. So he plumped for ahimsa. He never kept his word. No group has been cheated like the Hindus. I am very happy we do not have another Gandhi. Otherwise we would have surrendered Kashmir. It is not going to happen.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:46 IST)
Hi Pat, You must have gone through Sardar's life also during your book.What are your views and what your research brings forth about him.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:48 IST)
Mr Pat, How did you expect the Congress to fulfill the wishes of just 20% of the population.They wanted the PM post.Do you think the Hindus would have kept quiet. Mr Azim talks about Urdu and cow slaughter. I think he should talk about Pak now. What are the rights of minorities over there. Hey atheist why don't you just talk about this if you are a good debater. Mr Pat...what are your views/....

///// Azim (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:48 IST)
Mr French: Now Some questions on the economic front: Do you think that lot of Muslims were zamindars in the northern India. And they feared more than plebian muslim masses. Because Socialism of congress they thought would wipe muslim industrialists and Zamindars...

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:50 IST)
rangeela, the feeling is more than reciprocated: i care little for you and your red-coloured notes, just being louder doesn't mean smarter.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:52 IST)
Hey Pat, How do you Gandhis behaviour when Sardar won the Congress vote for PM and he put his foot down and made Nehru the PM.Why he loved Nehru so much.Nehru family background was very very suspicious.His father realationships were really illicit and illegal

Zaid (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:52 IST)
Mr Patrick French: Do you think the appointment of Liaqat Ali Khan as the Finance minister in the interim government was a big mistake. And that is why Sardar Patel was determined to have a separate country rather than staying with muslims???

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:53 IST)
Hey Pat, I think I am asking you specific questions and all are valid.Why are you feeling embarrased to answer them.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:55 IST)
atheist, I think you have got a aversion to red coloured notes just as the psuedo secularists in India.YOu do not have any aversion to green coloured ones.COmmon man treat both colours with equal disdain.Do not be biased.The world hates hypocrites

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:56 IST)
A point to note: all leaders must reflect their people, yet must be also different. If Gandhi had been just like any other, he would have remained that way, a non-entity. Perhaps it was his complexities and what you call fads that made him the person he was. So how wrong was he then? He still achieved more than most? Also, I have no disregard for Jinnah, but as has been noted, this Muslim leader was only Muslim by birth. Yet his actions mark him to be only the leader of the Muslims. Maybe it was his aloof, aristocratic bearing that saw him achieve his goals? Yet, their legacies were different, and secular Jinnah's legacy is a theocratic state, where even a Shia Jinnah would have been hounded today? Now, don't you think Gandhi deserves more respect than what you have accorded him?

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:57 IST)
Hey Pat, What do you think about Gandhi's supporting the Khilafat movement.It was never related to the nation.Do you think he was trying to appease the Muslims.Do you think this was a wrong move.I think if this a public chat and you have really done some research you will be answering my pertinent questions.People start feeling uneasy when questions are asked frankly.I think Pat you should not feel uneasy.

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:58 IST)
Rangeela: MY LAST POST TO YOU: the world hates loud mouths like you too, who spew hatred and half-knowledge. Pls converse with Patrick French rather than make ridiculous statements.

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:59 IST)
Thanks, Mr French, for your reply.

Advait (Tue Sep 9 1997 20:59 IST)
Rangeela:Wow some strong views .. Mr French: You seem to have missed my posts about your notings on Gandhi's entourage costing more .. than Jinnah's I feel rather than economics .. How else can you help identify with common massess ( of course this cannot be the only way ). But will traveling in F.Class help this cause. Jinnah didn't have as much public standing as Gandhi...Comments Pl.

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:0 IST)
Hey athiest, I do not know what Gandhi has achieved. 1) He told that partition will take over his dead body but partition did take place and he did not die. 2) What secularism you are talking about.Are there not riots.The tickets are distributed on basis of caste and religion. 3) What has india achieved during the last 50 years. 4) People are dying of starvation in Orissa daily. Common atheist you must be coming from a rich family who has not gone to the villages.I think reading books does not suffice.You should see for yourself.

feni (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:1 IST)
Mr. French ! Sorry, I'm late on this chat. But did you expect the reaction you got when you were writing the book ?

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:2 IST)
Mr French, my previous query was a bit tooooo long! Sorry. But my main point is that in the final analysis, the leaders must be judged by their legacies. Surely you agree that Gandhi's is better than Jinnah's, though both would be horrified by what they see today. Secular Jinnah created a religious state, a very "Hindu" Gandhi a secular state, whic is no doubt under stress. Your comments please

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:2 IST)
Mr Pat, I think Atheist started this rude chat.He should keep to himself and his views.If he feels that my views are strong yeah it is.I do not care about his views.So he should not care about mine.I think you have not pointed out this to him.Pat you appear to love Atheists.Are yo uone.

Zaid (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:4 IST)
Mr French: Is it true that even for appointing a peon in his office Sardar Patel had to ask for permission of Liaqat Ali Khan????

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:6 IST)
Mr Pat, I do not think that there is anyu legacy of Gandhi anymore in India.All the leaders are conspicous by their utterances.Nobody talks about Gandhi nowadays.The people have also very well understood Gandhis failures.I think when the people start reading and get literate they understand the contributions of the so called great leaders.That is what is happening to Gandhi.I think after 50 years Gandhi will be in the dustbin.

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:7 IST)
Rangeela, thanks for your msg, and I am writing despite my previous promise. I am not from a rich family, and have been to a few villages, but yes, I am urban based. 1)Could Gandhi have avoided Partition? In 9147, he was very much on the sidelines. 2) Riots occur, sadly, but that is a reflection of our poverty and changing situation. In Nazi Germany, the Jews never rioted. So in a perverted way, riots actuallys send a msg, and anyway, they have been decreasing (but perhaps will never go in mankind's history) 3)India's achievement -- too many and too few, go thro' the Independence stuff all over the world 4) People are dying of starvation in Orissa, yet India today exports foodgrains! The trouble here is distribution and corruption, which is very sad and despicable.

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:9 IST)
Rangeela that was 1947

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:10 IST)
Mr French, thanks again

feni (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:12 IST)
Mr. French ! I haven't read the book myself. But can you throw light on why writers in the West (supposedly a liberal breed) are so obsessed about Mr. Gandhi's sleeping habits ?

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:12 IST)
Mr French, could you tell us what made Gandhi so popular and charismatich with the millions of Indians. There has been no one like him, and others' popularity was derived from Gandhi's blessing, esp Nehru, who in turn annointed Indira, and so on

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:14 IST)
Mr French, You said that Jinnah wanted a Pakistan that would live in harmony with India. Gandhi always warned that the two would fight. So can't we say that Jinnah's view was not sufficiently far-sighted?

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:15 IST)
Pat, About Jinnah.Did not Liaqat say when Jinnah was dying, I want this old man to die fast.Is it true.Was Jinnah during his last days dillusioned with the Pak he created.So fanatical.

feni (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:18 IST)
Mr. French! You say you've got a hostile press. So, briefly, how would you want you version of history to read like...

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:18 IST)
Patrick, do you think a day would come when they would tear down statues of Gandhi and Nehru (esp. Nehru) in India like they did in Russia?

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:20 IST)
According to some historians, Jinnah on his deathbed called Pakistan the greatest blunder in his life. Is this true?

atheist (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:21 IST)
Mr French, was not Gandhi's appeal rather pan-Indian (minus the Muslims)? Or was it confined to north Indians alone? What about South Indian, those in Bengal and further east, and Maharashtra, Gujarat and Sind?

RRB (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:22 IST)
Mr. French...just joined the chat...may have missed something... the main criticism against Gandhi seems to be that he was too 'Hindu' in his underlying objectives..Is that right? I believe that he was responsible for turning an elitist movement of the Congress (by guys who had far greater freedom than Indians in 'free' India) into a mass movement with the promise of social change vis-a vis caste system/rural-urban. The Congress essentially used him to ride onto power. The momentum he created for voluntary change was his great achievement, it unfortunately died with him (maybe why he was killed) If he hadn't India would have completed the transformation. I don't think one could take that credit away from him...

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:22 IST)
Mr Pat you have not answered mine.What Jinnah felt during his last few days.Or you do not wish to answer my question.

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:24 IST)
Patrick, why compare two flawed personalities and say one is better than the other. Jinnah was to blame as much as Nehru (yes Nehru) for partition and not Gandhi (though Gandhi didn't do what he could have to prevent it doesn't meant he was to blame for causing it).

rangeela (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:26 IST)
Mr Pat, It appears as if you are not interested in answering my questions.No probs.And it appears that you feel some are more equal than the rest.Fine.It is your viewpoint.Bye.I think I wasted my time.It was not very nice talking to you.

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:26 IST)
RRB, WELL SAID!

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:28 IST)
rangeela, no need to be rude. it's impossible for him to answer everyone.

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:29 IST)
i always felt that gandhi didn't have as much power (in political parites) as much as we think and so he really can't be blamed for the egoistic errors of the elites holding real power.

Floyd (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:31 IST)
Looks like I entere preety late! He is gone already!

RRB (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:32 IST)
Mr. French.. What was the eccentric agenda that you say Gandhi persued by the late 1930s ?

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:36 IST)
RRB, you make it sound as if gandhi created the mass movement single handedly. i would think he was just instrumental in creating the movement. congress imported him for exactly that purpose from SA after he gained some publicity in british media for his actions there and just marketed him to indian masses. (they probably just created a frankenstein, but did quite ok to control it).

chokshi (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:38 IST)
hello

Floyd (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:38 IST)
Thaks Mr. French for being so cosiderate. Tell me if you do not mind, what made you come back ?

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:40 IST)
i like your views patrick. very interesting indeed. good to know that someone published something that didn't make out gandhi to be such a hero (a feeling that i subscribe to). gotta definitely read the book. what was the name again. Liberty or Death. right?

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:43 IST)
Floyd, you had one question and that is what you ask!!!!!! reminds me of a joke where there is this moron who throws a quarter in the wishing well and then wishes he had his quarter back.

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:46 IST)
still i do not understand how can you make out jinnah to be such a hero. shouldn't he have had some vision and acted more responsibly that he did (out of his personal

Floyd (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:47 IST)
Mr. French could you please tell me how to get your book. I want to read it as I missed out your views in this chat.

Floyd (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:54 IST)
Thanks Everyone!

Guruji (Tue Sep 9 1997 21:55 IST)
nothing there at the site. what do i look under?