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The Rediff Interview/ Dr Frene Ginwala

'No one individual has made South Africa'

E veryone has a reason for doing what they do. But some people have more than one reason. Like Dr Frene Ginwala, for instance. She has 40 million reasons! Forty million South African citizens compel her to do what she does.

She joined Nelson Mandela on her return to South Africa after spending more than 30 years in exile when the African National Congress was banned. She headed the ANC's research department between 1991 and 1994. She also served as deputy head of the ANC commission for the emancipation of women and is known for her commitment to the achievement of substantive equality for women.

Presently serving her second term as speaker of South Africa's democratically elected national assembly, she is an active member of the ANC. Dr Ginwala has been deeply involved in the political and legal framework of the nation and is known for her formidable research on South Africa's nuclear programme, on sanctions, and the arms and oil embargo.

Currently co-chairperson of the Global Coalition for Africa, chairperson of the Southern African Development Community Parliamentary Forum, she has just been elected chairperson of the Commonwealth Parliamentary Association, Africa Region.

Dr Ginwala was in Mumbai recently to receive the Priyadarshni Academy Global Award for outstanding contribution to the promotion of human rights and democracy. Minutes after receiving the award, she spoke to Aparajita Saha about the free and democratic nation that South Africa is, her people, about the battles won and the struggles that lie ahead.

How is it dealing with a country with such diversities between Blacks and Whites?

It is a challenge because racial stratification coincides with the division between the haves and the have-nots. It has often been said that we are a country of two nations -- the haves and the have-nots. Those who have education and those who do not, those who have housing and those who do not, and the rich and the poor. This, unfortunately, co-exists with the inequality between Whites and Blacks. So when you try to address he needs of the majority of the population, who are the have-nots, you draw criticism from the formerly privileged. The latter finds this equality difficult to come to terms with and accuses us of racism when they don't even understand the degree to which racism is embedded in our society.

We have changed the laws of apartheid but the heritage remains, the consequences remain unchanged, the legacies of racism and discrimination still exist and that is what we have to address.

Describe your vision of South Africa.

My vision of South Africa would be that of the nation that emerges after we have dealt with all the divisions that I mentioned. It is one thing to prescribe equality in the laws and it is entirely another to put equality into practice. Whether one is talking about men and women, Black and White, poor or rich, equality, in effect, means that you have all the opportunities and you also have the capacity to exercise and enjoy that parity. That is the kind of society I would want to see in South Africa.

We already have an almost perfect constitution but the challenge is to give it meaning in the day-to-day lives of the people. Individuals should develop their full potential and the fabric of society should be such that it enables people to do so.

How successful has South Africa been in facing these challenges?

When I see what has been achieved in South Africa, I think we are doing very well as a nation. We have provided for the poor. There are over five million more people who have clean water. The previous government provided 10,000 houses a year while we have provided homes for over a million. There is a non-racial education system in place.

What is most important is the fact that people are free and they are aware of their freedom. They know there are problems but, for the first time, they also know that they have a say in making decisions that affect their lives. This is something that was earlier denied to all of us. This is very liberating for South Africa.

How much of South Africa is Nelson Mandela?

One needs to understand South Africa and South African leadership. It has never been the leadership of one individual. No one individual has made South Africa. It has been in the making for over 100 years by people's sacrifices and by people working towards a particular vision. It is from this vision that Mr Mandela emerges. He has been created by people belonging to this very society.

Of course, he has a particularly unique character, which has greatly helped and made tremendous contributions, but one should not perceive the struggles of this nation as a one-man show.

Do you think the present leadership is well equipped to take the nation forward?

When any leader retires there is always a question of how their shoes will be filled. It happened in India when Jawaharlal Nehru passed away. Questions arose of how the nation and democracy would survive. India has now enjoyed over 50 years of democracy and I am absolutely confident that South Africa will also do the same.

What have been the political milestones achieved by South Africa?

What is most significant is that in 1994 we had a democratic government for the first time. A system based on equality and opportunity for all. This has been the most major and vital change in the history of our nation.

How did being in exile help shape your politics? What are the lessons you learnt from that experience?

More than influencing my politics, it made me greatly aware of what was happening around the world, an opportunity that very few people get. We lived in so many different countries and saw what was happening in their societies. We were a part of liberation movements that subsequently acquired power and we observed what leaders did with that power.

The positive aspect of the exile was that it gave us a multitude of unique experiences that we brought back with us. Not many political movements have had this opportunity.

What, in your opinion, equips you to meet the challenges you face?

I am no different from the 40 million South Africans who are meeting these very challenges every day of their lives. Personally speaking, part of my conviction and strength comes from the courage and determination I saw in people in exile. Did we face difficulties? Yes. Yet people kept continuing with their efforts, ceaselessly and tirelessly. I get my fortification from these people.

Your re-election as speaker of the South African national assembly was criticised.

My detractors believed that speakers were not politically well equipped. But since they knew nothing about democracy, I didn't take them seriously.

You have been complimented on your impartiality as a speaker. How difficult is it to remain impartial?

I think part of the job is to preside over parliament and make sure that it is principles and not party politics that you are taking decisions on. The rules of debate don't matter nor does the party practicing or maintaining them. What is necessary is to maintain the rules and principles of democracy within the parliamentary framework.

Also, something we have tried to do since 1994 is to make ours a very inclusive parliament. Unlike a lot of other parliaments, we do not have a minimum number to beget recognition. All members enjoy the same status, whether they are a party of 250 or a party of three members. In this way, we have been pioneering the way parliamentary systems work.

You have been involved in diverse issues. Which are the ones that are closest to your heart?

I don't think one can rank them. Basically, the issue is the creation of the kind of society I mentioned earlier. To have that kind of society would mean that women would have to play a vital and equal role, so one is automatically involved in women's issues.

But equality and elimination of economic differentiation cannot be achieved without science and technology, so one looks in that direction too. I think it all comes down to the objective and whatever one needs to do to reach that objective that leads to diversity in priorities and issues broached.

Can you mention some of the most crucial decisions taken by you?

I don't think one takes those decisions in the life and struggles we have led. We have a vision and we work within an organisation to realise that vision. It is very much a collected leadership -- you debate, you argue, you win some and you lose some.

India and South Africa have always had cordial relations. Where do you think they will go from this point and what is the potential of this relationship?

We have common principles that have been developed over the centuries through mutual exchanges. People mustn't see this relationship as one that was invented recently. These common principles have inspired us.

Indians have led the rest of the world in having diverse systems that co-exist side by side. In spite of the differences, be it linguistically, religiously, culturally or ethnically, India is firmly bound together, with her democracy intact.

This is a task we are yet to accomplish. We have to draw on each other's strengths for a symbiotic existence. I believe we should be working with developed countries to shape globalisation. Globalisation cannot be stopped and it carries with itself immense potential as well as danger. It has created greater divisions and increased the disparities between the rich and the poor. The gains of developing countries can be maximised if they come together.

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