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The Rediff Interview/ Chhagan Bhujbal

'We want both, Dawood and Chhota Rajan'

Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister and state Home Minister Chhagan Bhujbal speaks to Senior Editor Sheela Bhatt about Chhota Rajan's extradition from Thailand and other issues.

There is some confusion between the Union home ministry and the Maharashtra government about Chhota Rajan's extradition. Could you put this issue in perspective?

There is no controversy in Mumbai about it. Since I became home minister, I have instructed the police that if there are any mafia attacks, have an encounter and face them. I am proud to say that in the last 6, 7 months there has been no murder for extortion.

Do you remember how merchants and traders labelled last Diwali Kaali Diwali (Black Diwali)? Even marriages were not conducted openly. People travelled to Ahmedabad, Bangalore, Surat to get married. Now wedding halls are not available. That fear has gone.

The government is on the right track. Whether the mafia is Hindu or Muslim, whether he lives here or outside, to which party he belongs is not important. Mafia ka dhandha mafia, dharam mafia, jaat mafia, language mafia, sab mafia. (The mafia's business, religion, caste, language and everything is crime.) We have nothing to do with the mafia. Those killed in police encounters belong to all the gangs -- Chhota Shakeel, Dawood Ibrahim, Chhota Rajan, Arun Gawli and Amar Naik.

I have met Lal Krishna Advani twice and given him in writing that some of these mafia gangs live abroad -- Australia, Bahrain, Malaysia and so on. They stay abroad and give us trouble here, so try to bring them here, have an extradition treaty. At that time I was told we are about to finalise some process with Dubai. We are helpless to do anything against gangs who live outside Mumbai. I said, let us proceed against all the gangs, let us not be selective.

How did you proceed in the Chhota Rajan case?

After I discovered what happened to Chhota Rajan, my police commissioner and director general immediately spoke to home ministry officials and IB and CBI officers in Delhi. Since then we are in regular touch with them. We wrote a letter to the Union home secretary. We told him we want this man because crimes are registered against him. My commissioner went to Delhi, spoke to top officers. We got permission to send a Mumbai police team to Bangkok. We obtained permission from the home ministry, external affairs ministry and ministry of economic affairs.

A day before their departure we received a call from M B Kaushal, special secretary, home, asking us to wait for some time and "not to go". Three, four days passed. Again our police got a call from Thailand that they might release Rajan if we did not reach Bangkok before Thursday. Somehow, we managed to reach there on Thursday morning.

The central government was asking for papers in Rajan's case all the time. We had given them all the papers. Before sending the team, the home department asked for Rajan's fingerprints. We had already given it in 1995 to the CBI, the nodal agency for Interpol-related matters.

Dawood, Chhota Rajan, and all such persons' fingerprints have been sent to the CBI. Again, they asked for Rajan Nikhalje alias Chhota Rajan's fingerprints. Again, we sent it. The man injured in Bangkok is called Vijay Kadam. The fingerprints sent to them matched Rajan Nikhalje's fingerprints. We received a fax saying it matched.

Delhi wanted papers and more papers. The preparation for extradition is a voluminous job. A big job. Even so, my policemen completed it.

What then is the problem?

Even though we have a treaty with Britain, Nadeem is sitting there for the last three years. In spite of the treaty we could not bring him back. Here, we don't have a treaty. Yet, we pursued the matter. Rajan's passport is fake, that is proved. So we thought, let the Indian ambassador in Bangkok declare his passport as forged, let it be revoked. We asked the external affairs ministry to construct the case. If that is done, he (Rajan) will be without a passport and he will become a stateless person.

He will face a problem, where to go? No airline will pick him up. Knowing him, who will accept him? When this situation arises, the man is sent back to his original country. Deported. That is the shortest method. I said we should try for his deportation. At that time Delhi was asking for his extradition. I said let us give them the papers needed for it. During these days, our men -- three policemen -- were in Bangkok.

The Indian ambassador told us, "Let the government send us the instructions. Your (the Mumbai police's) request is not enough." One night, at ten O'clock, I spoke to (Union external affairs minister) Jaswant Singh. I gave him the details and said we should ask for deportation. He said he would talk to his officers.

Next, I spoke to Advaniji. I told him our policemen are wasting their time in Bangkok. He mentioned some papers, I said no paperwork is pending. The same night Jaswant Singh spoke to MEA officers and passed on the message to the Indian ambassador in Thailand.

The next morning the notice was issued, revoking Rajan's passport. My police commissioner spoke to the ambassador in Bangkok this week. He told the ambassador, 'My police officers are held up there, how can they come back?' Kya kare bichare? They know the criminal they want is sitting there. How can they leave him alone? The Thai police is asking for a variety of papers.

At one point, the Thai police asked for a translation from English to Thai. How would my policemen know Thai? The ambassador has assured us he will take care of the translation. Now they are working on it. We are hopeful my policemen will not come back empty-handed. From our side I am telling you there was no delay. In the beginning, the matter got delayed in Delhi. That is a known fact.

Is Rajan paralysed?

He is improving. The bullets hit his stomach, but he will not have any permanent disability. Since his life is in danger, six Thai police commandos provide him security.

What is your understanding of Mumbai's underworld? How do you look at the Dawood versus Chhota Rajan battle?

I was brought up in Mazgaon and Dawood in Dongri. His father was a police havaldar. Woh bahut mamuli kism ka ladka tha (He was an ordinary boy). Chhota Rajan was in Chembur and Gawli was... sala, meri hi area main tha (he lived in my area). Now see what they have become!

We want your reading of the rivalry between Dawood and Rajan.

The gangster psyche is, 'Main jyada, main jyada. Main paisa jama karoonga, main paisa jama karoonga. Mujhse log darenge, mujhse log darenge.' (It is one-upmanship. Each one of them wants to make more money compared to the others. They want to spread more fear than the others did.)

When Dawood's gangsters go to extort money, Chhota Rajan's gangsters will come in their way. They will not allow the deal to go through. Aur phir woh usko marega, woh usko marega. Yeh sab apne apne samrajya ke liye hai.(And then they will fight each other. This fight is for supremacy; it is for creating one's empire.) The mafia wants control. Mujhse bada dada nahin hona chahiye. (They don't want a bigger don). What else is there?

Have you met any of these gangsters?

No, I have not met any of the mafia of Mumbai. Chhota Rajan was in Chembur; I haven't seen that bechara. Goli kha kar pada hai is liye bechara bol raha hoon. (He is wounded, that is why I am calling him a poor chap).

Have you met Dawood?

No, I have not met him. People used to say he visited Mazgaon when boys fought.

Are they as deadly as people perceive them to be?

Bilkul (Absolutely). Even today, when a phone call is made to someone, there is fear. After all, it is a matter of a bullet! Other politicians give them Rs 10,000, 15,000 and order jao isko goli maro, usko goli maro (politicians order criminals to shoot) That is why people fear them. Slowly, slowly this fear shall decrease. People and the police should be assured that political personalities are not connected to gangs.

Politicians shall not indulge in dadagiri. If the Shiv Sena indulges in extortion and goondaism, what right does it have to ask for anyone's arrest? They are the mafia. Their friends are the mafia. People will wonder where to go now? That is a different culture, so the police mould themselves accordingly.

If one gangster is released because a Sena shakha pramukh wants it, another gets released at someone else's request.

Do you believe some Sena shakha pramukhs are linked to the underworld?

Initially, it was not the case.

There are some good people too. But people at the top encourage Shiv Sainiks who beat up people. If they beat up Opposition members, all the better!

Theirs is a maro, maro, maro culture! It is a violent culture. So many people's land has been encroached upon, so many people's hotels have been looted. When one mafia gang gets organised, another mafia emerges to counter it.

Have you received any threats from the underworld?

Who will get threats from the underworld? In the past if you asked someone to bump off your enemy, then he will sit on your head one day. He will say, 'I killed that guy during the election, now you do my job.' I was not a rich man at that time, what can they get from me?

Mumbai police officers spoke to Rajan in Bangkok for more than an hour. What did he tell them?

He mainly says, 'Mujhe kaiko pakdate ho? Dawood mujhe marega (Why are you arresting me? Dawood will kill me).' We said, 'Dawood kaisa marega tumko, tumko leke jayenga to tumhe jail main dalenge na? (How can Dawood kill you? If we take you along, we will put you behind bars, right?)' He only says, 'Why are you giving me a hard time? Why are you taking me to Mumbai?'

Officially, what is the status on the search for Dawood Ibrahim?

According to us, he is in Pakistan. We wrote to the central government. When the criminal is outside our country we can't do much. Only Interpol and the central government can act. We have requested them to help us get him. Here, when goons take the law into their hands we don't spare them. We want both of them, Dawood and Chhota Rajan.

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