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The Rediff Interview/ R V Pandit

'Good politicians themselves are more disappointed with India than even concerned citizens'

Part 1: 'Rolling back power tariffs in AP would mean embracing populism'

Part 2: 'In the nuclear era, the choice is between being either a fool or a wise man'

Part 3: 'It's now clear that communal clashes in the past were politically motivated'

Part 4: 'The consequences of our naach-gaana era would be....Kaun Banega Crorepati'

On the lack of exemplary leadership in India over the decades:

The freedom movement threw up agitators. Not managers. A country of our size and poverty and potential needed managers. Managers of men and materials. But even a liberal man like Nehru did not accept JRD Tata’s advice or accept his help. Freedom had donned them all with exceptional arrogance. The tradition continues.

People credit Vajpayee with taking the initiative to resolve tensions with Pakistan and the Kashmir issue. But then, after how many years have we had a Vajpayee? In every prime minister, we should have had a Vajpayee. At least as far as the bleeding problem of Kashmir is concerned. But we didn't have. That is our tragedy. A Narasimha Rao and a Manmohan Singh came along, almost out of compulsion of circumstances, a full 20 years too late. That is our tragedy.

Vajpayee has become the PM at the wrong time when India's social and economic problems have increased. The population pressure is tremendous. Kashmir has reached flashpoint. Even things that we thought don't exist as problems, like malaria, TB, overexploitation of soil, erosion of top soil in agriculture, the populist policies of the last 50 years... all these have accumulated and are overflowing. We are suffering the consequences.

It's not that the authorities are not bothered about the real issues. Most of the bureaucrats are unconcerned; they are often overwhelmed by the magnitude of our problems. And many of them are corrupt. They are all part of a system which functions for their own good.

There is no united political will to change the system. Overall, the experience of a concerned citizen of India has to be one of disappointment. But I can say with certainty that politicians themselves, at least the good ones, are more disappointed than I am. I can say that of the PM, of the home minister (L K Advani), of Dr Manmohan Singh (former finance minister). They are all disappointed with the pace and circumstances of our progress. I know them to be disappointed with the kind of citizenry we have produced.

On whether another 'misadventure' in Sri Lanka is likely: 'I don't think the govt will ever do such a foolish thing'

I had warned in a letter to Indira Gandhi after Operation Blue Star that she would be assassinated. I had also warned Rajiv Gandhi. It was done after analysing their policies. When we sent our forces to Sri Lanka, I wrote an article entitled, 'Get out soonest.' Many people, including Rajiv Gandhi himself, criticised me. My argument was, one, our intelligence was faulty; two, it is foolish to expect our forces to fight a war with Sri Lankans who are by and large of our own stock.

I don't think Vajpayee or Advani or Jaswant Singh will ever do such a foolish thing. If they do, they will pay with their lives. Their whole temperament, the idea of involving people is different. They think this is people's government. Previously, Mrs Gandhi created, 'We and they'. But these leaders and people such as Dr Manmohan Singh go by consensus. Remember how well Narasimha Rao was getting along with the BJP on most issues until the Ayodhya incident? I believe there is no alternative to the policy of consensus now.

On Indians' apathy to public issues: 'The Indian citizen is guilty of many wrong-doings'

A metro like Bombay can be held to ransom by cowardly politicians whose bravado is powered by security walls. Yet the public is a mute sufferer. They can see what is right and wrong. The BJP-Shiv Sena government made Maharashtra bankrupt. The state was already in a bad shape when they assumed power. Will citizens of Maharashtra demand that these people be brought to trial for wrong-doing while they were in power?

They won’t. For we ourselves indulge in wrongdoing.

Suppose a million people were to take out a procession in protest in Bombay against, say, a near future power tariff hike which is inevitable in Maharashtra because of the shenanigans of politicians and bureaucrats in MSEB over the past two decades; such public protest would put the government on notice, and they may not do what they had contemplated to do. But we won't do that. We will blindly pay that hike, we will mutely pay cable TV taxes even if they are raised 100 per cent, cable operators will go on strike, there will be a black-out, the cash-starved government will impose a tax of 100,000 rupees on a car because they have wasted money on things like having 200 security people for one leader... all these things will go on because the Indian citizen is not a citizen, he is a resident. He is happy within the confines of his house because he is also guilty of many wrongdoings.

Anger or action comes out of conviction. Indians do not have strong convictions.

On his definition of a good citizen: 'If we behave in society as we do in our family, our situation would be better'

A good question for us Indians to ask is: how good a citizen am I? If people seek an honest answer to this question, I think it will be the beginning of a revolution. The yardstick could be universal: moral honesty, fiscal honesty, community responsibility and so on. If we behaved in society as we do in our family, our situation will be much better.

Indians are very good in their families' confines. Even today, you can be sure that a large number of elderly people would be looked after well by their children. People consider their country their mother -- Bharatmata and all that. But somehow, it is only when something like Kargil happens, people act unitedly. If there is a war with Pakistan, each Indian will act as if he is at the front.

I'm not saying we should go to war with Pakistan. There are no victors in war. Not in this age and time. We can possibly wipe them out. But they can also inflict great damage on us. If, suppose, half of Bombay is damaged, our loss will be greater than ravaging whole of Pakistan. What do they have there? It is a poverty-stricken country moving towards the bullock-cart era.

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