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The Rediff Interview/ Seshadri Chari

'We only want the Pope to say that all religions are one and the same'

The Pope's visit to India has kicked up a ruckus, with certain pro-Hindu groups strongly opposing it. Leading such forces is the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh and its various affiliates including the Vishwa Hindu Parishad, the Bajrang Dal, and Vanvasi Kalyan, despite the fact that it is the pro-RSS, Bharatiya Janata Party-led government that cleared the visit.

Seshadri Chari, editor of the RSS mouthpiece Organiser, is among the many who have flayed the visit of the head of the Roman Catholic Church and the Vatican state. In this interview to Amberish K Diwanji, he outlines the reasons for his opposition.

What are your objections to the Pope's visit?

The objections are on two counts. First, the Pope is visiting India as the head of a state and the government accepts the Pope as the head of a state. When he visits India as the head of the Vatican, we welcome him. But the Pope is not going to visit India only as the head of the Vatican. He also happens to be the head of a religious community. So after coming to India, he will not limit his appointments to the extent of state functions. He is going to attend religious functions. Our objection is here.

The head of the Vatican is also the head of the Roman Catholic community across the world. So it is understood that when you invite the head of the Vatican state, you are also inviting the head of the Roman Catholic Church.

Yes. When the question of the Pope's first visit came up, he got the visit approved as the head of a state. Having come to this country, it is not just in his capacity as the head of a state.

Let me give an example. Tomorrow, if the head of Sony Corporation becomes the prime minister of Japan and pays a visit to India. As the prime minister of Japan, he pays a state visit but if during such a visit, he starts holding business meetings, will it be in the fitness of things? Will it be morally right? Will it be ethically correct? Visits have not only to be right on the political side but also have to be morally and ethically correct.

To refer to your example, if the head of Sony Corporation were to become the prime minister of Japan, he would resign from Sony or take a sabbatical from the corporation. The Pope never does that. The Pope is the head of the Vatican while being the head of the Roman Catholic Church...

Fine, fine! The Vatican is a political creation, not a religious or spiritual creation. The Vatican was created by virtue of a treaty with Mussolini and his fascist state. What is the significance of the Vatican either in the life of Jesus Christ or in the history of Christianity?

So the Pope just presides over a church, and Vatican, or the Pope for that matter, is not the head of all the Christians in the world. There are a number of Christian sects in the world who do not recognise the Pope as their leader.

Since you yourself admit that the Vatican is a political creation while the Pope is first and foremost seen, by the ordinary Christian on the street, as the head of the Roman Catholic Church, is it not axiomatic that he will attend religious functions on his visit to India?

Perfectly fine! That is why we would have appreciated it if the Pope's office had written to the Government of India that I am planning to visit India as the head of the Catholic Church. That unfortunately did not happen. We don't expect someone of the stature of the Pope to tell the Government of India that please invite me to visit India as the head of a state, and as head of a state, grant me permission to address the bishops conference of Asia.

The real purpose of the Pope's visit is to address the Asian conference of bishops. This meeting was first scheduled to be held in Taiwan, later they [the Pope's office] were looking for a venue in Hong Kong. They were even looking at holding the meeting in Lanka, and I was told that they were even toying with the idea of holding a meeting in Nepal, of all the places.

All these countries refused permission. Taiwan, Hong Kong, even Sri Lanka refused to have the Pope. That is why the Pope's office turned to India. Because India has always been a very soft country on these matters. We have always held religious leaders in high esteem and we did not want to hurt the sentiments of the Christians in this country, hence the arrangement was agreed to.

Therefore, when we are giving them [the Pope] the courtesy of being the head of state, we expect that after coming to India, he should respect the sentiments of the majority people of India. Eighty-five per cent of the people of India are Hindus. Hinduism is a very old philosophy. Hinduism has its own values, its own traditions. All that we expect is that the Pope should come here and pay his respects to the Hindu religion in this country. To the Hindu ideals, philosophy and faith.

Can you tell me how exactly the Pope's visit conflicts with his not paying respects to the Hindu religion?

We believe in secularism. All religions have equal status. We don't differentiate between Hindus and Christians and Muslims in this country, nor do we differentiate between the different sects in the country. For us, all religions are one. This is the idea as far as the secular state is concerned. Secularism does not mean that India is an atheist state or a theocratic state. We [the RSS] ourselves don't agree with all the ideals of secularism, but as it is practised today, it means equal respect to all religions.

The State of India has this as its faith, and the Constitution of India forbids anyone from saying that his religion alone is supreme, and all other religions are subservient or they don't find any place in the comity of religions, this is something that is absolutely absurd.

Aren't you assuming that the Pope will actually say that? He may never make any such statement.

We only expect the Pope to share this view of the Government of India. We want him to say that "all religions are one, all religions take the human towards godhood, all religions have some spiritual values, and we must be religious in our approach to life". This is what we expect him to say. Can't he say this? We don't want him to say that "Christian religion alone is supreme". Nor do we want him to say "Hinduism is the greatest of all religions in the world." No. We only want him to repeat that all religions are one and the same. What is his objection to that?

Your objection is to the fact that he will say Christianity is the greatest religion. That apart, why should you expect him to say anything else?

But that is what he is going say. He is going to come to the country, address his bishops, and tell them to go out and preach that Christianity is the only religion and Jesus Christ is the only solution on salvation. That is what he is going to say in this country.

But most religions believe that they are superior to other religions.

Every religion believes that except the Hindu religion or philosophy. It would be wrong to use the word Hindu religion so I will use the words Hindu philosophy. This is what we want him to accept. This kind of largeheartedness is expected out of any dharmacharya [religious leader], any representative of a religion.

We consider the Pope as another dharmacharya. All these [religions] are different ideals, different ways of looking at life. We only want him to appreciate that. For us, the Pope is another dharmacharya. So if the Pope wants to be a dharmacharya, he can come to this country as a dharmacharya, as the head of a religion. He need not visit us as the head of a state. If he does, then he should maintain the decorum that a head of a state maintains.

Will the RSS and its affiliates hold rallies and black flag marches during the Pope's visit?

No, I don't think the RSS will hold such demonstrations or rallies. Regarding the VHP and Bajrang Dal, I don't think they too will hold such rallies though one cannot speak for them.

Will you tell them not to hold such rallies?

They are all different organisations.

But they draw inspiration from the RSS.

That is true as far as the ideological and philosophical basis is concerned. But beyond that, the RSS will not dictate terms to them. They are free to do whatever they want. But in general, since these organisations have their ideological links to the RSS, they are not going to stage such demonstrations because we believe that a person of the Pope's statue should be informed in a proper words and he should understand the sentiments of the Hindus.

Why the objections now since it is a BJP-led government that has cleared the Pope's visit?

We had raised our objections earlier. We had raised our objections during the time of the Eucharistic Congress held in Bombay some 30-35 years ago. Even then we had raised our objections and there have been no answer. The RSS even published a book then listing 100 questions for the Pope and none of them were answered.

In fact, our stand was vindicated because when the then Pope had come here, one of his representatives had said, "We are selling a particular brand of soap and do you expect us to say that all brands are equal. Then who will buy our soap?" This is the example he gave. For him religion is nothing but a soap opera!

Do you expect an apology from the Pope, as some have wanted?

Correct. One particular organisation in Goa has demanded that the Pope apologise and we support that. Goa happens to be one state that underwent a lot of problems because of Christianity. The entire social structure was changed. Christianity was introduced in Goa by the Portuguese and untold atrocities were committed on the people of Goa. There are many books on this subject. Those who refused to embrace Christianity had their hands tied to an iron pillar and their hands were chopped off. This iron pillar still stands in Goa. It is called 'Hath hathro khambro'.

Such atrocities were perpetuated more by the Portuguese rulers than by Christians?

But it was all done in the name of the Pope.

If you are going to ask every denomination to apologise, surely there is a lot for which Hinduism has to apologise for?

First of all, Hindus have never committed any such crime anywhere outside India. Inside India, there have been inter-faith clashes but atrocities of these kind were never committed. And wherever there have been issues where such atrocities were committed or alleged to have been committed, people have already approached the affected people. Like there could have been instances of higher caste people treating the lower caste people in a bad manner and in such cases, there have been political corrections, there have been corrections by virtue of the Constitution and through social reforms. For instance, the third sarsanghchalak [RSS chief] Balasaheb Deoras had said that "caste system is outdated and should go lock, stock and barrel." It was not for the RSS leader to apologise but there have been shankaracharyas [Hindu leaders] who have apologised to the dalits.

The Shankaracharya of Puri some years ago actually said that he supported the caste system and sati. Any comments?

See, there can always be such cases and that is why we want discussion on such subjects. Let the Pope come and have a discussion with us. Let them come out and say that what we [the Church] did 500 or 1000 years ago is bad and apologise for it.

In all this, are you not forgetting the contribution of the Christians to India. The best schools, the best hospitals are often run by Christian groups.

The Ramakrishna Mission is also running many good schools and hospitals. The RSS is also running many such institutions.

Are you denying the Christian contribution?

No, I am not denying the Christian contribution. But the Christian contribution to this country was not free. The Christian running of schools and hospitals was not for spiritual upliftment but for the propagation of the Christian faith alone. What even Mother Teresa did was nothing beyond propagating her religion and this is our basic objection. Mother Teresa has on record said: "I have come here to propagate my religion and whatever I am doing is service in the name of Christianity and the Pope."

The Pope is going to speak about the arms race and about pro-life. What is the RSS's approach to these subjects?

I cannot speak for the RSS but in my personal opinion, these questions must be seen in the political and social contexts. The arms race or even India going nuclear is a political issue and is best left to defence experts. It is not for a religious leader who has his office in Europe to come and tell us whether we should engage in an arms race or not. If he is so worried, he should address the US Senate which has rejected the CTBT. He should tell China not to support Pakistan, and tell Pakistan not to enter into an arms race. Why come and tell India? Why make it an issue here?

When it comes to issues of abortion, the Pope is an ardent opponent of abortion. This issue relates to a particular situation and the ethics and social system prevalent in a country. Islam too is against abortion but many Islamic countries have accepted abortion because population is exploding. It is a very major problem in all the developing and underdeveloped countries. They are being subjected to some of the worst tyrannies because of excess population. So every country needs to deal with the situation.

Population may not have been a problem when Christianity was founded or when the Church was established. Then they wanted numbers because their philosophical existence depended on sheer numbers and followers. Same was the case with Islam. But both Christianity and Islam now do not need more numbers.

In fact, now there are a number of Christian sects that do not even accept converts, saying there is no point in getting more people if we cannot look after their basic needs. I really appreciate their approach. Even the Vatican is seized of the population matter and there debates going on in the Church. Regarding the population question, the Vatican should come out and see the reality.

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