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The Rediff Interview/Professor D L Sheth

'How many of the former untouchables are present in the top echelons of the private sector?'

SEE PARTS I & II

But given that political clout will be used to be part of the OBC list, is there some way to avoid that?

I personally think there should not be a permanent national commission. A permanent commission means permanent contention. And the members are judged by their performance, which translates into how many communities they can add to the OBC list! Moreover, since the members are appointed (for three years) by politicians, they are subject to pressure. Though the members are autonomous in functioning, they should also be autonomous in their constitution.

There should be a three-year term for a commission every 10 years during which time they can hear representation and pleas for inclusion and exclusion. So many genuine small communities are still to be listed.

Reservation per se is condemned by many. Will you reply to that?

First, India has a unique system -- the caste system -- and hence needs a unique approach to solve the problem. The caste system is 'systemic discrimination' of justice and deprivation of the majority by a small minority. And this has kept the vast majority out of education and jobs.

Upper castes have a certain status and a nepotistic network that has been functioning all along and which still functions today. And there was a reservation system, such as in the Bank of Baroda, where only Brahmins and Banias could be employed and you could not find a third caste! We must recognise that there has been a reservation system within the caste system.

The whole problem is that in reservations for the lower castes, we come across the prejudice of the upper castes. They don't want to rationalise it, they just want to abolish it and create a lot of misinformation to discredit such reservations. That is why I find it very difficult to go along with them.

The reservation system does need a lot of streamlining and improvement. And beyond reservations, there are so many other facilities and benefits available but which are never heard about or used. The Mandal Commission itself does not mention them. There is so much hypocrisy and dishonesty about reservations now just because the Jats have been included. The inclusion of the Jats may be questionable but that by itself does not discredit the whole concept of reservations.

One question is how long will reservations continue?

Reservation has to go on until we in India create -- a word used so often nowadays -- a level playing field for all. Today, it is not a level playing field for all. Reservations have to continue until such time that poverty and deprivation is a random phenomenon and not a systemic phenomenon. This means that a professor's son may have to become a truck driver and a truck driver's son can become a professor as part of a random phenomenon, as it happens in truly liberal and equal societies.

In India, this is not random but systemic so that for centuries, only a certain community was considered good enough to provide all the teachers and the professional class. In modern parlance, this is considered merit, which is like saying merit is a hereditary trait! Unless this prejudice is removed, in fact, till such time as casteism is removed, reservation will stay.

One of the problems is that reservation is a struggle for seats in higher education when actually India needs to ensure universal primary education.

Why is it that for the past 50 years India could not provide universal primary education? It is because of our caste system. It is because those who made such policies were the upper castes and dominant OBCs, in which communities there already existed 100 per cent literacy. Their problem was not primary education but higher education. Hence, all sorts of investments were made in higher education. In the bargain, the need for primary education, whose benefit would have gone to the lower and the lowest castes, was totally forgotten.

Thus, it is because of the in-built discrimination of the caste system, because of the upper castes' prejudice, that the children of lower castes were denied primary education while a small minority got subsidised higher education! The upper castes wanted to prepare their children for international careers. So we have great technologists who can get jobs abroad but millions who can't read and write.

It is a bit like the bus system in India. Those who manage it or make policy for it never actually travel by bus, moving about in private cars, so how do they know what the needs of the bus passengers are.

You have spoken about broadening our elite base. Can you elaborate?

One of the problems of India is that its talent base is drawn from a very narrow section of society. Other talents were rejected because of the caste prejudice. Hence besides government reservation, there is a need for greater sensitivity on this issue. Because this is not government policy, there is a lack of social awareness on this issue.

For instance, how many of the former untouchables are present in the top echelons of the private sector, how many in the top rungs of India's biggest private corporations? May be just two per cent of the total.

Surely there are some deserving people from the non-upper castes! So why don't we see them in the top private companies? Why don't we see Muslims? The answer is because the practice of discrimination still continues. I am not saying there should be reservations in the private sector, but surely there is a need for fairness and more openness. How come nobody talks about this?

People complain when the OBCs seek reservations but nobody speaks out when the OBCs, Dalits and Muslims are denied jobs in the private sector. I wish someone would take a survey of all the industries and find out how many such people are there? Very often the lower castes don't even apply fearing outright rejection.

You did mention that besides reservations, there is a need for other avenues.

One of the good effects of casteism is that it created people who were highly specialised in certain kinds of profession. And we can utilise their inherited knowledge in various industries. For instance, in the textile industry, surely we can help traditional textile communities -- the Padmashalis and Bunkers -- who have special skills to enter the modern age. They have skills that can be used to India's benefit.

I am not advocating further caste divisions, just that we should use our strengths. We have so many such communities. Caste besides hierarchy is division of labour and specialisation. No society has such highly developed skills. It is India's advantage. And these skills in metallurgy, textiles, leather, can be brought into the modern sector. But all this is neglected because such castes have no voice in policy making.

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