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The Rediff Interview/Subramanian Swamy

'Jayalalitha is the only person who can bring down this government'

Subramanian Swamy, the one-man demolition squad, has been at it for long. His penchant for taking on, and often bringing down, various administrations has earned for him the sobriquet 'political gadfly'. A former member of the Sangh Parivar, Dr Swamy fell out with his associates, and has remained rabidly anti-RSS.

Never one to forget a slight, or overlook an insult, Dr Swamy was piqued when the BJP government refused to heed its ally Jayalalitha's suggestion that he be given the finance portfolio. He has since been trying to put together an alternative coalition, but his effort bore fruit only last Monday, with his much-vaunted tea-party.

That evening brought together AIADMK leader Jayalalitha and prime minister in-waiting, Sonia Gandhi, for the first time since the latter became Congress president. It was an evening pregnant with possibilities, as subsequent events have shown.

As the Vajpayee government puts up a brave front over the challenge mounted by Swamy's ally Jayalalitha, Amberish K Diwanji and Saisuresh Sivaswamy quizzed the lone Janata Party MP about his motives.

This tea-party, apparently, is an unqualified success, judging by the turnout. What was your motive behind organising it? What next?

Well, that really depends on the willingness of the various people who came here. But I think we have some common issues on which future co-operation, which may lead to collaboration, and ultimately coalescing into the Vishnu Bhagwat issue, and the allegations made. I think, if I am right, there is a fair degree of unanimity among the secular opposition parties, including Ms Jayalalitha, on how you treat the Vishnu Bhagwat issue. I think that's the cornerstone on which the future realignment of secular forces can be organised.

Because George Fernandes is a major security risk before the country. We can't have him as defence minister. And therefore, on this issue we are united.

To interrupt your flow here, he's been defence minister for a year now. So why this sudden eruption against him now?

There is no sudden eruption. From day one we have been saying this. It took some time for it to sink in, and to attain credibility the affidavit of the admiral was essential. If I say George Fernandes is a traitor, if I say George Fernandes is harbouring LTTE, people will say this is one politician making an attack on another politician. But the moment the admiral, decorated, with the reputation of honesty, then whatever I have said, clicks in place. Now if I say that, people believe it.

When do you see the political realignment happening?

I think this session of Parliament. I think if the prime minister sticks to his stand of not shifting George Fernandes, it will cause the realignment.

He has already said that he will not shift Fernandes...

Well, he has said so, but he is not known for keeping his word. He is a very weak-spined man.

But is Jaya willing to go along with the whole gameplan?

It is not just her. There are other people also involved in this.

But Jaya has always given the impression of being willing to strike, afraid to wound?

That is the media projection based on the RSS's disinformation. She cannot go for the kill if there is no alternative.

Is there one now?

It is taking shape today onwards. You saw it some time ago.

Sonia Gandhi's presence here was very significant. How did you manage that? How did you persuade her?

I am very grateful to her for coming today. She came on her own, nobody can persuade her. She was convinced by the logic of the situation.

Basically the evening's exercise seemed to have only one motive: making life difficult for the BJP government...

But that's part of my job, I am in the Opposition... What do you think, I must make life easy for them? I am in the Opposition....

But Jaya is not?

She may not be, but she is my ally. We are together. Actually it is the BJP that should ask her, to choose between them and Swamy and find out who she chooses.

One also saw a couple of BJP leaders here. How did you get them to come here?

Yes, but they are my personal friends. Uma Bharti and Narendra Verma are personal friends. There's nothing more than that.

Sonia Gandhi has shown an amazing capacity to bark, but not bite..

You know, these are all caricatures, what do you expect her to do? Until she herself is satisfied that when you remove the BJP something durable should come in its place. And we are not performing monkeys for you media men here. We have to create an atmosphere, and for creating an atmosphere barking is necessary.

But what if the government falls because the Congress decides to bring down...?

( interrupts) You are wrong there. The Congress cannot bring down the BJP government. They are not partners in this government.

What is significant about Jayalalitha and Sonia Gandhi getting together is that Jayalalitha is the only person who can bring down this government. And without Sonia it is impossible to form an alternative government. We need her co-operation. So when these two come together I think we have tied both ends.

But three governments in three years? How will the people react?

People are fed up with this government. And they are already critical that we are taking so long to remove this government. And I don't believe in these smart-alec statements that there three governments in three years. If they are rotten governments there should be ten governments in ten years.

Do you think Sonia will make a better prime minister?

How do I know? I have not tried her yet. Who is going to be prime minister, how can I decide? That's got to be worked out.

A year ago Jayalalitha had lambasted Sonia as a foreigner, etc.

I think you people remember only these things. The BJP called Parkash Singh Badal a traitor. And Sheikh Abdullah a traitor. And they in fact called Badal a terrorist. They got beaten black and blue by Bansi Lal in the Emergency. But such questions are asked only of Jayalalitha, myself and a few others. Why don't you ask the BJP this question, how did you get together? You see, something happens a long time ago, some remarks are made, I don't think you can be held prisoner to what you have said in the past, you may change your mind.

A government that comes about not through the public mandate, but through reworking the parliamentary numbers, do you think such a government has legitimacy?

Did Vajpayee have public mandate? If yes, that is your opinion. If Jayalalitha was not there, there would have been no mandate. They fought the elections together, that was a mistake. But the people today are ready for an experiment, that's my assessment.

I would say the mandate is measured by the MPs. How the public treats them. Today I would say that if I went around the country saying that this government should be replaced people are applauding. They are cheering. They are saying do it quickly. I don't know, what is this public mandate? We are in the business of finding out what the public mandate is. And I tell you, the public mandate today is to get rid of this government. That's my assessment.

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