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The Rediff Interview/Ronnie Mendonca

'Our problems are not easy. The courts. The causative factors. The jails, from which they run empires of crime'

Ronald Hyacinth Mendonca has been a popular cop. A tough, incorruptible, no-nonsense cop who does his job without fear or favour. But why has he failed to stop Bombay's frightening downslide into crime? Why is India's most happening city suddenly running scared? Why are the cops looking like losers in their battle against the underworld? Is it political patronage? Or is it corruption? Or plain inefficiency? Or have the courts taken the mickey out of what was once the nation's finest police force? Pritish Nandy speaks to the city's police commissioner.

Shootouts, robbery, extortions, contract killings have increased at a frightening pace. Citizens believe the police are losing control. What do you, as top cop, feel about this?

It is not correct to say that crime has gone out of control. But you are right in saying that the underworld criminals have become very active and there has been a spate of shootouts. It is important, however, to try and find out why.

Why? Why do you think it is happening?

We had crack teams of well trained officers with the courage to face these criminals and go after them. But since these criminals started moving the courts and a large number of petitions were filed (even though other avenues were available to them if they had any evidence) our officers found themselves at the wrong end of the law…

It all started with an encounter case. The case of Javed. The cops call him Javed Fawda. His relatives claim he is Javed Sayma. The issue before human rights activists is: Did you pick up and kill (in cold blood) an innocent peanut vendor in a case of mistaken identity or did you kill a dreaded criminal in a real shootout?

You are right. It all started with Javed Fawda. We were clear that he was not innocent. There was no question of mistaken identity. The person who died and the person who was arrested by the Shivaji Park police station in an attempted murder case seven months earlier was one and the same person. His sister had come and taken his body as that of her brother. It is not uncommon for people to refer to someone by one name and add a descriptive at the end. Like Iqbal Mirchi. Javed was called Fawda because his teeth protruded.

But the other things added up. He had given his brother's name as Abu Sayma. His address was the same. So there was never any question of mistaken identity. We explained this to the Samajwadi Party delegation when they came to see me. His sister was there as well. She also admitted: 'Haan, kuchh jhagda hua tha unka.'

You know what happened in the court. These people came out with a false affidavit by some Fernandes. They could not produce him in the court. Now the court will decide. As far as we are concerned, we have done no wrong. But others have now joined issue. PUCL, CPDR, Human Rights. They want all cases from 1995 to 1997 to be taken up.

You mean all encounter cases?

Yes, encounter cases. But that covers a large number of officers and policemen.

You mean a large number of officers and policemen are involved in encounter cases?

Well, they get involved in the court cases, which keep them busy from doing their actual work. After all, there are many other avenues of protest. If they have a case, they can go under the CrPC to the concerned court, marshall their evidence and we will defend ourselves. But it is happening the other way now. Most of our officers are busy attending court, preparing affidavits. Including me. This is a tremendous distraction.

The second part is that our officers now feel that a sword is hanging over their head. The law wants us to catch wanted criminals. Criminals who, if caught and sentenced, would get life sentence or death. These kind of criminals, when we go to arrest them, resist. To catch them, we must redouble our efforts. We cannot withdraw. Withdrawal means cowardice. If, in the process of redoubling our efforts, if the criminal gets killed, the law must protect us. That has been the tradition of policing. But now, none of us are very sure if the law protects us because any number of these petitions are being admitted.

As a result, my officers have become inactive.

And the underworld has become hyperactive?

Yes.

But why has it become hyperactive?

Their fear of the police has now vanished!

But surely the police works within the framework of law? You were never above it?

But we were protected by it. Today we are not sure.

You are not sure because you are perhaps taking too many liberties with it? The common citizen is as terrified of the police as he is of the underworld. This is why criminals have been glorified. They are seen as the only people who can fight back the police force. That is why they become heroes to ordinary folk. Because the police is no longer seen as the good guys.

I agree that our image is not as good as it should have been. But the Bombay police force is still the best anywhere.

True, if you compare it to Bihar and UP. But is it true compared to its own past? Why is there such an image slippage? Because of its politicisation? The feeling that any local hood masquerading as a neta can misuse the force?

I do not think this is true. There is no political intervention.

There is no political intervention to bail out criminals?

That is not the feeling I have. These criminals are on their own. But yes, they have support. We know, for instance, that the Dawood gang gets support from the ISI. That is how so many criminals have infiltrated Bombay. We had bomb blasts on the eve of the elections. 27th February. Prior to that we had two rail blasts. Before that there was an explosion in a mosque. All these were caused by ISI agents. We caught the persons involved in these blasts but, then, the ISI agent managed to escape. Subsequently, about 21 days back, we caught an ISI agent -- Javed Husain alias R K Sama -- and a couple of days back we caught another one -- Shamshad Haider Hanif Khan alias Rajkumar. They have been trying to recruit local support.

You mean terrorists and the underworld are coming together to target Bombay?

Absolutely. ISI agents and terrorists are taking advantage of these gangs.

But that does not explain the rise in other crimes? Robberies, thefts, extortions, armed dacoities, murder of old people?

These have not really increased, Mr Nandy. Figures will bear me out. In the first four months of this year, there were 30 dacoities and 140 robberies as against 24 and 175 during the same period last year. 127 murders and 43 attempts to murder against 110 and 63. Yes, extortion attempts have increased, from 68 to 88, but thefts have decreased from 3456 to 2,589, riots from 53 to 35.

How have new gangs penetrated the scene. Last time you told me that only four gangs controlled the underworld: Dawood, Chhota Rajan, Ashwin Naik and Arun Gawli. Now one hears of Babloo Shrivastava, Subhash Thakur and other new names.

You are right, new players are there. Earlier these chaps had loose associations with the other gangs. Now they have struck out on their own, as independent ganglords.

What about Abu…

Abu Azmi is a political party leader. But he was prosecuted for murder. He got acquitted when all the witnesses turned hostile. He was prosecuted for kidnapping. The complainant himself turned hostile. He was accused in the bomb blasts case but he was discharged by the high court. He is now involved in the shoe scam. He is on bail…

I was actually asking about Abu Salem.

He is part of the Dawood gang. He, Chhota Shakeel, Noora, Anis.

Any other new gangs?

No. But Gawli has been very active in extortions. I detained him in Amravati jail. But his lawyers got dates for several old cases raised in the courts and virtually forced us to bring him to Thane for his appearances. None of the cases came up for hearing, of course. Just dummy runs went on. But that altered things. When he was in Amravati, barely five followers hung around him. The moment he came to Thane, the numbers went up hugely. Followers from all over Maharashtra came. Since then, the extortion activities of his gang have also increased in a very big way.

But other crimes are also increasing. Shops are being robbed. Old Parsi couples are murdered. Thieves are entering homes in broad daylight and terrorising people in the heart of the city. Small restaurant owners are being shot dead.

If you take the average of the last five or six years, there are about 400 murders a year, 100 dacoities, 650 robberies. That means a murder a day, two dacoities a week, two robberies a day. This has not increased.

Surely, that is not something we are proud of. What steps have been taken to bring the figures down?

Causative factors are beyond our control. The huge influx of population. Easy anonymity. Recruitment of shooters from outside the state, young boys who come in, kill and vanish-to reappear again after months, for another crime. Local criminals are rarely used because they are on our records and can be traced. New people are recruited from remote places, used, paid Rs 10,000, packed off. These are the new shooters.

Otherwise, there has been an 18 per cent drop in crime from 1997. And 1997 had the lowest crime rate in many years. So we are not actually doing as badly as everyone thinks. But we have problems that are not easy to tackle. The courts. The causative factors. The jails, from which these criminals run their empires of crime. These are not under my control.

The Rediff Interviews