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The Rediff Interview/ Murasoli Maran

'Is Mr Vajpayee going to succumb to the pressures of this lady, or is he going to stand on principles?'

On Monday, we published an interview with former industry minister Murasoli Maran on our business pages. In this interview with Shobha Warrier, Maran, the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam's leader in Parliament, discusses Jayalalitha's threat to the DMK and the likely political upheaval in the state.

Do you feel threatened by the way Jayalalitha is pressurising the BJP government to dismiss the DMK government in Tamil Nadu?

It is not a question of feeling threatened. She is threatened. She is threatening the BJP. The BJP is depending on this lady. If the BJP leaders stop worrying about their image, they may do anything. It is a question of following principled politics as they have been following earlier or switching over to Machiavellian tactics -- the end justifying the means. Not only India, but the whole world is watching what Mr Vajpayee is going to do. Is he going to succumb to the pressures of this lady, or is he going to stand on principles?

What do you think he will do?

I feel finally good sense will prevail. In the sense, the BJP is not a fly by night party. It has achieved its goal for the first time and they have to be on the Indian scene for a long time. If they give a go-by to the principles of democracy and federalism just for the sake of power, then I think they have to declare themselves enemies of democracy and federalism.

People will only weigh them only according to that position. I feel they will think twice before taking a drastic decision. But we can't say. Because there is another lobby in the BJP, I know. There is a dignified side of the BJP represented by Vajpayee. There is another ugly face of the BJP also.

You mean the Sangh Parivar?

I don't want to name anyone. They want to stick to power at any cost. Nothing succeeds like success for them. Power at any cost. We really do not know which side will win.

If the BJP succumbs to the extremists and dismisses the DMK government, what will happen?

Then 14 other governments have to go. Bihar has to go. Rajasthan has to go, Maharashtra has to go. Orissa has to go... Are they going to dismiss 14 governments?

After his meeting with the PM, the Tamil Nadu chief minister said Vajpayee would not sacrifice the DMK government to save his. Did the PM assure him about that?

I don't know. But there are certain Machiavellian attitudes in any party, not only in the BJP. The Machiavellian attitude is that the end is more important than the means. I don't know which will succeed. We are prepared for any eventuality.

If the BJP thwarts Jayalalitha and if she withdraws support, will you support the BJP?

That question does not arise now. Let us cross the bridge when we come to it. Still it is an unstable government.

At present, the instability is caused by the AIADMK front.

When I was a minister in a minority government, I refused to go abroad. There were several occasions, but what is the use of going? You cannot fool them. If we go to the USA or UK and say, we are a stable government, they would laugh. They know more about us than we know about ourselves. You can't fool them.

Whenever I went abroad, I used to say, yes, ours is a minority government. For some more time, we will have coalition governments. But regarding economic policies, there is some kind of consensus. So you need not worry. The government may fall, but the policies will continue.

The BJP had always been against using Article 356.

It is always a test for every party. For example, when I was in the United Front government, the dismissal of the UP government came and I set my foot down. I was the only who opposed it. In spite of it, the Cabinet carried the show. Then the President sent it back. I fought a lonely battle. I said, in that case, the DMK will quit the government. I am sorry to say Mulayam Singh and others walked out of the Cabinet meeting. They said it does not matter even if we lose the government.

The argument at that time was that there were 95 cabinet members and horse trading was going on. I said, let the people of UP decide. If there are 95 members in the cabinet, they will become a laughing stock. And next time, they can't come (to power). People will teach them a lesson.

But if you kick them out now, they will become martyrs. I said, the people of the state are the masters of their destiny. Who are you? Who are we? So we should not stand on a moral pedestal. We should go by the principles of federalism. That was how I fought.

The next day, I want to tell you, Mr Vajpayee telephoned and congratulated me. Dr Murli Manohar Joshi wrote a beautiful letter saying, whatever I have done will go a long way in strengthening the healthy relationship between the Centre and the states. That was the position we had taken.

So, if something is being done to the DMK government, okay, fine. Ultimately the people are there to judge. We are sure of coming back. But the image of the BJP will not be the same as before (laughs). See, people all over the world are watching.

But the pressure from Jayalalitha can become too much for them to bear.

I don't think they are happy. Nobody will be happy with the way this lady is behaving. She is doing all this for her own selfish purpose. You know what the purpose is. Several cases of corruption against her are at various stages in various courts. She thinks by dismissing the government and imposing President's rule, she can put pressure on the central government to withdraw all those cases. But that it can't be done so easily is another matter.

Her game plan is to get out of those cases of corruption. Those are not ordinary cases, they are cases of corruption worth several crores of rupees.

Do you feel Article 356 should be scrapped?

That was our opinion, the DMK's opinion from the beginning. Do you have such a clause in America? Theoretically, President Clinton can press a nuclear button and destroy the world. But he can't dismiss the governors of New York or California. Such powers, which existed in the 1935 Constitution because the Britishers did not trust the swadeshis, have no place in the Constitution which calls itself federal.

Will any government at the Centre scrap the Article? Will they try?

It is possible. We discussed it. It was sent to the Inter State Council and the ISC appointed a standing committee. I was one of the members. Do you know who advocated scraping of this Article 356? Myself, belonging to the DMK, the Telugu Desam party, the Asom Gana Parishad, the chief minister of Rajasthan, Shekhawat belonging to the BJP and then the Shiv Sena. All five of us opposed the Article.

Do you know who wanted it to be in the Constitution? The Congress, that is, the Orissa chief minister. You will be surprised to know the other person was. Mr Jyoti Basu. I argued, 'Why do you want it? You are supposed to be a democrat, you are supposed to be an advocate of federalism.' He said, 'No, Mr Maran, see, tomorrow communal parties will come to power in some states. We want to dismiss those communal governments.' Then I asked him, 'if communal parties come to power in Delhi, what will you do?' He said, 'No, no, it will not come. We will see.' Now what has happened?

Even if the so-called communal parties come to power, it will be only when the people vote for them. When the people want some party in power, does any other party have the right to say anything against it?

That's right. That is why I said, if the people want them, who are you or who am I to say otherwise?

Why did the DMK-TMC front fared so badly in this election?

I will tell you something. You will be surprised to know, the difference between the ADMK front and the DMK front is nearly 1.1 million votes. Okay? So, if we had procured 550,000 more votes, the results would have been different. Now will you say, this was a hands down victory for any group? We just missed it.

But the final result is a victory for them.

I'll tell you. The turn out was poor. Our people were so over confident. See, it was only a question of 550,000 votes.

That was what everybody felt. You were over confident.

Actually I was not over confident. I have won by a good margin. Generally the DMK cadres were over confident.

Was it because of the opinion polls which predicted a clean sweep by your front?

The Coimbatore blasts also played a big role.

Was it because people wanted stability and they thought the BJP would be able to provide that?

There are so many reasons. Success has so many fathers, but failure is an orphan, nobody will claim him. So, there are several reasons and every reason has some effect.

Cho Ramaswamy said the DMK-TMC combine was so over confident that they did not want the CPI, Janata Dal, etc in the front.

You know, it took 28 days for the DMK and the TMC to come together (laughs). The bomb blast happened on the last day of the propaganda. So, we didn't have the time to go to the people to convince them. Naturally people felt terrified and the BJP took advantage of it. Even outside Tamil Nadu, they might have got at least 15 seats because of the Coimbatore bomb blasts. I should say, the BJP should be thankful to the mindless Muslim terrorists!

I saw advertisements in Hindi newspapers like this, 'look at these two young boys. They were killed by mindless terrorism (when they were playing cricket) (laughs) I am not blaming them. They were very good in marketing. I will attribute at least 15 seats because of advertisements like these.

The general impression about the DMK is that they are soft on Muslim fundamentalists. How true is this impression?

We are soft on the minorities. We hate fundamentalism from any side.

By being soft on Muslims, are you not alienating the Hindus?

We are not soft on Muslims alone. We are soft on all minorities. Minorities have a role to play. We should be generous.

Won't you be alienating the majority then?

How? Do you want to throw all the minorities into the Bay of Bengal?

What will the majority feel when you are extra soft on the minorities?

Tell me one instance where we have given then anything extra? We are treating them as equals, that's all. We are not ignoring them. We are respecting their wishes. What is wrong in that? Our party was started in the 1940s as a social reformist party to uplift minorities and backward classes and not to contest elections. The purpose of our party is the development of backward classes and minorities.

In India, most political parties look at and treat backward classes and minorities as vote banks. Do you agree with that?

Every political party is for vote banks. So, if you are for the minority, you are for a bigger vote bank (laughs). Tell me one political party which does not want a vote bank? Everybody wants to have a vote bank, if possible. Don't treat minorities as a group of mindless people. They vote according to their conscience. The idea of dubbing them just as vote banks is totally wrong. By doing so, you are treating them as sheep which blindly follow the shepherd.

Do you think the rise of the BJP is because the Hindus have started feeling that all the political parties are giving undue importance to the minorities?

I beg to differ. In Tamil Nadu, everybody is treated equal. We are all citizens of India. We can't give greater status to X, Y or Z.

Then, what according to you is the reason for the rise of the BJP?

Where is the alternative? The Congress has disintegrated. Kesri has made it a big zero. In the Janata Dal, there was a lot of infighting. The Communists are restricted to West Bengal, Kerala and Tripura. We are limited to Tamil Nadu. The TDP only to Andhra Pradesh. People are searching for an alternative, but there is not a good alternative. So, take it from me, even today if there is a good alternative, people will accept it.

Even the BJP is a big regional party. It belongs to the cow belt. I think the future belongs to regional parties, a coalition of regional parties. A bigger regional party like the BJP, the Congress or Janata Dal may lead it, that's all.

Do you attribute the rise of the regional parties to the arrogant attitude and functioning of the Congress?

The Congress was associated with the freedom movement. After you attain freedom, people wanted economic freedom but it was not there. The dynasty had a very big role to play. A very useful role.

Useful role?

Yes, at that time, India wanted leadership. Mrs Gandhi came, and in spite of the Emergency, she provided some kind of a leadership. Rajiv Gandhi's tenure was very short and I don't want to comment on that. But there is no such kind of all India leadership now. It can't be in the future also.

People evaluate each and every person and party on merit, on what they can do and what they have done. So, the future belongs to regional parties. We have to get accustomed to coalitions.

The Rediff Interviews