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The Rediff Interview/Amar Singh

'It was very suffocating to be part of an outfit which raises the slogan of fighting the communal forces while being in bed with such forces'

Samajwadi Party general secretary Amar Singh is always in demand. Now that the great gambler of the Gangetic plain, his leader Mulayam Singh Yadav has joined hands with the other Yadav chieftain of Bihar to form the Rashtriya Loktantrik Morcha, Amar Singh is sure of his role -- to get the arithmetic right for an alternative government at the Centre.

In a conversation with Rajesh Ramachandran, Amar Singh lashes out that it is the Congress which keeps the BJP in power. And that the question is not whether the present government will fall or how an alternate one would be formed, but whether the Congress will give the green signal to topple the BJP government.

How is the National Democratic Front different from the United Front? After all, Mulayam and Laloo were in the same front till Laloo fell out with the new Janata Dal leadership?

There are a lot of differences. The United Front was mostly dominated by the Janata Dal. I K Gujral contested elections with the help of the BJP's ally, the Akali Dal. And Ram Vilas Paswan got elected with another BJP ally, the Samata Party's help. Again, in Bihar, in the just-concluded election, the Janata Dal and Samata Party forged an alliance to fight Laloo. And in Uttar Pradesh, the CPI, BKKP and the Janata Dal came together not to ensure the defeat of the BJP, but to see that Samajwadi Party is routed.

The chairman of the UF, Deve Gowda levelled a charge that acting against the ethos of the United Front's declared policies, the SP has entered into an alliance with the Congress in Maharshtra, hence the Janata Dal is forced to oppose the SP.

Considering the ethos of anti-Congressism propagated by Deve Gowda and C M Ibrahim they should have effectively opposed the Congress. Instead they withdrew the official Janata Dal candidates against Murli Deora and Gurudas Kamat. And as for supporting their allies, they put up their own candidates against SP nominees in Bombay which led to the defeat of SP candidates in one constituency by 100 votes and in another by 10,000 votes. And the chairman of our front, Deve Gowda, and Ibrahim campaigned against the SP in the general election.

So basically the new front which you have formed is UF minus the Janata Dal.

Yes, it is basically the UF minus Janata Dal. As I said, when a committee was formed to review TADA about which we were always concerned as it directly affects the minorities, Mulayam Singh was kept out. So it was very suffocating to be part of an outfit which raises the slogan of the fighting the communal forces while being in bed with such forces.

Mulayam could have succeeded Deve Gowda as prime minister. Wasn't Laloo Yadav responsible for destroying his chances? With such a history of deception fresh in mind, how can the two get along?

Laloo was responsible for it and he admits it openly. But the brain that worked behind Laloo's action was that of Sharad Yadav. And he is still thinking on those lines, that the BJP or any communal outfit is better than Laloo and Mulayam. The prime minister's post is not a big thing for us.

But if it comes to it again, won't Laloo stab Mulayam in the back?

Such a situation won't arise again. We won't fight for the prime ministership. It's a very silly thing, particularly in today's dispensation when even the biggest of personalities turn into pygmies when they become prime ministers. Like Atal Bihari Vajpayee, he was never so helpless and weak as he is today.

You talk about an alternative government, but given the nature of unnatural allies you would have in the coalition, how long will such a government last?

Who said we are forming a government? Let the Congress form the government. About the alternative government's life-term, it is for the Congress to decide. As far as we are concerned we will not play the same game that the Congress played with us. For no rhyme or reason they pulled down two prime ministers. Let me assure you that we won't be that irresponsible.

Are you ready to accept Sonia Gandhi as the prime minister?

Sonia Gandhi hasn't yet said she is a prime ministerial candidate. Let her first announce that she wants to be the prime minister, then I would react.

Is the Congress ready to pull down the BJP government?

If the Congress had agreed to topple the government, the BJP wouldn't have lasted even for a minute. They have been issuing statements that they don't want this government to go.

Why? Is there any reason for Congress's dilly-dallying?

Well, this is a question which you should ask Sonia Gandhi and the people who claim to be close to her, like Arjun Singh and Natwar Singh. They will be in a position to answer this question.

What about the deal theory? There is speculation that Sonia Gandhi has struck a deal with the BJP?

I don't want to be that harsh on Congress unless I have sufficient proof. I would simply say the Congress is not willing to pull down this government. Otherwise,, this government wouldn't have lasted even for a minute.

So the Congress is solely responsible for keeping BJP in power.

Absolutely.

Even if the Congress helps you pull down the government, how will you form an alternative government?

The BJP is going through a crisis and we are heading towards an alternative. We are in the process of consultation with all the secular forces. It cannot happen with the United Front. As for the UF, the party which is still dominating the Front, the Janata Dal, has only six MPs and all the six attend the core committee and steering committee. There has to be a beginning. And Laloo and Mulayam coming together is the right beginning. In course of time we expect others to follow suit.

What is the arithmetic that you have in your mind when you claim that the government wouldn't last a minute if the Congress wants the BJP to go?

The arithmetic lies in the bickering among the BJP allies. The government will fall because of the weight of Mamata-Samata-Jayalalitha combine. We don't have to worry about it.

But how can you take Jayalalitha's support for granted, even if she is willing to come out of the BJP coalition? She would obviously seek the dismissal of the Tamil Nadu government as a pre-condition. Are you willing to promise her Karunanidhi's scalp?

Wait and watch. Let there be some unanswered questions.

What about the Pawar factor? BJP leaders have told us that they are in touch with Sharad Pawar and that as long as Pawar is on the sidelines the Congress will not be able to make a concerted attempt to pull down the government...

He is the only mass leader of some consequence and esteem in the Congress. He is enjoying a good position as leader of the House. Soniaji has given him due recognition.

Let me tell you, the BJP leaders are great dreamers. Last time also they dreamt of a Congress split which never took off, simply because of that party's size. It is not possible, because the Congress is a president oriented organisation. Even a man like Sitaram Kesri emerged stronger than Pawar or anyone else, when he became party president. Sonia Gandhi is a far bigger personality than Kesriji, let us give due credit to her personal charisma. It doesn't mean that I am singing paeans of praise for her. I am just telling you the truth.

I don't think that there will be any substantial bickering or a split in the party. Not in the near future at least. If they could accept the anonymous Sitaram Kesri a year ago and Kesri after his initial fretting and fuming could accept Sonia Gandhi with total loyalty, where is the problem? The problem lies only in the fertile imagination of the BJP leaders and their political managers.

Do you think that the NDF can make the kind of impact in the cow belt the two Yadavs are capable of, without a patch-up with the Bahujan Samaj Party?

Well, I can tell you one thing, that it was we who realised the BSP's potential initially. That is why we entered into an alliance with them and proved that our vision of the social forces is correct. We gave them a new lease of life and because of us they came to the political forefront. But unfortunately they proclaim that their ideology is power and they take great pride in admitting they are weathercocks and political opportunists.

Even when Mayawati was arrested I came out with a strong statement condemning the action. I was not currying favour with anyone but I felt that arresting Mayawati from her residence just because she was going to participate in a demonstration is not correct. Subsequently Kanshi Ramji appreciated my statement by calling me a Manuwadi. See, I want to tell Kanshiramji through you that I don't have any control over the choice of my parents. It's beyond me. Kanshi Ramji is accusing me of something which I am not responsible. So, how can we have any kind of understanding with such inconsistent and mercurial characters?

But isn't this what the BJP wants, a triangular contest where the BSP and the SP fight each other?

What can I do? I can only try to bring all the secular forces under one umbrella. As a journalist, what does your sixth sense tell you? They have twice hobnobbed with the BJP. If they have sufficient strength what is the guarantee that they won't go with the BJP for a third time? The BSP is no longer a party of principles, in spite of repeated overtures they have not responded. We are not beggars.

The Rediff Interviews