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The Rediff Interview/A K Antony

'Sitting in the Opposition is in a way a natural therapy for the party'

I first interviewed A K Antony when he was chief minister of Kerala but not once did I feel that I was talking to the most important person in the state," recalls Shobha Warrier. "I was simply bowled over by his simplicity and accessibility. This time, he is leader of the Opposition in the Kerala assembly. But he remains the same simple person out of power, as he was when he was the state's chief executive. One minor incident that happened to me outside illustrates this point.

"When I went to meet Antony, the guard had asked me to park my vehicle outside the gate. But before I could do that, somebody from the office signalled me to bring the vehicle in. Antony's private secretary profusely apologised for the guard's behaviour, and immediately sent instructions that he should not stop anyone at the gate. 'We never asked for any guard. It was the government which has posted him. I am sorry for the inconvenience,' he said."

It was soon after the Ernakulam by-election that she met Antony, the United Democratic Front having lost the seat. But Antony refused to make any excuses for the defeat. A defeat is a defeat, he conceded.

Let me ask you about the Ernakulam by-election first. Even though the UDF won more seats than the LDF in the recent Lok Sabha election from Kerala, you lost this assembly seat. Did it come as a shock to you?

It was an unexpected defeat, that is all I can say.

What, according to you, were the reasons for your defeat?

A defeat is a defeat. We have to accept the fact. Sometimes people vote for a particular party in one election and then vote for another in the next. That is the pattern that has been going on here.

Do you think people consider the performance of the LDF government to be satisfactory?

It is for the people to decide. According to me, it is not satisfactory. In the parliamentary election, we won in 80 assembly segments out of 140, and managed to win 11 out of 20 seats. Now we lost.

Is it because of factionalism in the party?

No, there is no factionalism in the party. I don't want to go into all that. It was a defeat for us and victory for them.

So, you are gracefully accepting defeat.

We have to.

You said the performance of the LDF government is not satisfactory. Why do you say that?

It is there for everyone to see. Is there any industry in Kerala? What about unemployment? More than three million youths have registered in the employment exchange itself. There may be more.

Kerala is in the forefront as far as literacy and healthcare are concerned. But no industry comes to the state. Why?

The main reason is because we have not developed power and infrastructure. In the early days of development, our priority was on the social sector, that is, mainly on education, communication development and healthcare. All the successive governments neglected the core sector. Now we are paying the price.

Do you feel while planning, that priority should have been given to infrastructure too?

It was a correct decision to give priority to the social sector. But it should have been a balanced one. We should have taken care of industry, power, irrigation, technological development, etc too.

The image of Kerala outside the state and the country is not of an industry-friendly state. The image of Keralites also is that they are quite enterprising when they are outside Kerala but once inside, they do not work at all.

That is not the image, it is the truth. It is the reality. Keralites are there in almost all the states in India and all over the world too. They are hard working outside the state, but quite laidback when they are here. They adapt to any condition. That is their nature but when they are inside the state, all this enterprise vanishes.

No industrialist wants to start a factory here because it is said that the very next day, there will be a strike in the factory. Who is to blame for this, the political parties?

That is there everywhere, not only in Kerala. But I will tell you such a situation was there only in the olden times. Keralites are more mature now.

Why is it that the political parties are not united even when the issue is development of the state?

We are trying to develop that new culture. That is why we feel all of us should work together, forgetting all our political differences, at least when it comes to the developmental activities of the state. We are supporting the present government in such issues even though they did not support us when we were ruling. See, today they are there, tomorrow we will be there. Why should we destroy our own wealth in the name of political differences?

Recently somebody commented that in developed countries, political parties shed their differences and talk in one language when the matter concerns the development of the state.

That is not there in our country. There are differences but even then, we are trying to work together.

In the Budget, the BJP government has put forward quite a lot of incentives for the NRIs to invest in India. There are a lot of Malayalis outside India. Do you expect them to invest in Kerala now?

Nobody will invest out of charity. So far, investors have not developed enough confidence in investing in Kerala. In the last few years, quite a lot of investors came to India but nobody came to Kerala. It is still a dream for us. Unless the power situation improves, I don't think anybody will come here.

Are you against multinationals investing in the power sector? The Enron project at Kannur, for instance, has been shelved now.

We are not against multinationals or private organisations. Earlier we were of the opinion that electricity boards should have the monopoly. It has changed now. If we can allow private sector to enter power projects, why should we differentiate between Indian and foreign private sector? The only criterion that should be followed is, it should not be against the interests of the state. Our experience has now taught us that the electricity board alone will not be able to generate enough electricity for the state. So, the private sector should be allowed but we must get the maximum bargain out of the arrangement.

Indian industrialists are asking for a level playing field and protection from foreign investors. What is your opinion about their demand?

There is some truth in their demand. Our industrialists have been working mostly under a protective umbrella. Advanced countries like Japan, the United States, Korea, etc have developed the present technology through many years of hard work. We will not be able to compete with their technology. So, liberalisation should be gradual. I think there is some strength in their argument.

So is swadeshi the solution?

Yes, swadeshi. But they should understand that whatever benefits that they are getting now are at the expense of the Indian consumers. Consumers deserve better quality products at a cheaper rate. But if we allow the Indian industries to die, tomorrow the MNCs can dictate to the Indian market. That is why we must liberalise at a moderate speed. We must raise the tariff only gradually and not all of a sudden. We must try to strike a balance between the demands of the Indian industry and the interests of the Indian consumer, not forgetting the world trends. In the present context, we will have to proceed a little more cautiously. Otherwise, our industry will collapse.

Now that the US and Japan have imposed sanctions on us and the World Bank has held back loans, are you happy with the Budget presented by Yashwant Sinha?

I will say the BJP government has not given serious thought to the post-nuclear explosion scenario. They have not even given serious thought to the aftermath of the sanctions.

You mean they should have made the market more friendly and attractive.

I am not an economist, so I cannot comment on that. But four per cent special tax on imports is a correct step, I think. But they have discriminated against certain items. They have given special exemption to some industries by increasing the import duty, but look at the case of caprolactum. In order to provide a level playing field for one-third of the Indian industry, the finance minister has increased the import duty but the very same finance minister reduced the import duty on caprolactum from 30 per cent to 25 per cent so that our public sector units like FACT and many other fertiliser manufacturing units are under threat. I can't understand this double standards.

They have also not given this 4 per cent tax increase benefits to tyre manufacturers. Why? This duty is not imposed on the import of rubber. He has tried to protect somebody but he has not protected everybody. I do not have the exact details but I am not convinced about this logic. But as a general rule, I feel this special import duty is a correct one.

On the whole, what is your opinion about this Budget? Will it help industrial growth?

Immediately after the Budget, we saw a confused finance ministry. You saw the petrol price fiasco. Something of this sort is happening for the first time in the history of India. According to me, this is not the real Bbudget. The real Budget will come only after some time. They have not looked into the aftermath of the sanctions at all. We will have to adjust to meet the sanctions. For that, we will have to encourage our industries.

Should we continue with subsidies even now?

Yes, we should continue with the subsidies. Ours is a poor country, and especially after liberalisation, we should support the poor.

There are rich and poor farmers. Should we give free electricity to all of them?

India is an agricultural country. It is not as advanced as many other countries. In Japan, France and even in the United sates, farmers are given subsidies. The farmers of India are not getting the same level of subsidies that the farmers of those countries are getting. If the farmers have to pay more money for electricity, they will raise the price of the food items. Ultimately, who will suffer? Only the poor in the country. So, I strongly support the subsidies.

Was it right on the government's part to conduct the nuclear tests especially when our economy is in such a bad shape?

We started developing nuclear weapons after the Chinese aggression. Over the years, we continued with the development but finally this government took a decision to test our nuclear strength. But our question is, why now? We developed the technology over the years. Due to various reasons, Narasimha Rao, Deve Gowda or I K Gujral did not give the green signal. Yes, we can be proud of our scientists. They are on par with the British or the US or the French scientists.

But these people started talking in a jingoistic language after the tests. They forced other countries to try the same tests. They named China and Pakistan as our enemies. The statements of many ministers in the present government created a negative impact on the world as a whole. India's image was that of a peace loving nation and it was due to the policies of Panditji, Indiraji, Rajivji and all the successive governments. Of course, we have to do certain things for the interests of the nation. But there is a limit. Their pronouncements have antagonised many.

I think it is not good for the country to create tension in the region, allow a kind of arms race to start and lead the country to a confrontation with China and Pakistan. I know Pakistan is creating trouble for our country. China also is not friendly. But we should have dialogue with them and ease the tension. That is why after many years, Rajivji tried to repair the relations slowly and carefully. We should not try to create war psychosis in the minds of the people. We should not play on national interests for political gains.

Like many say, do you also feel that they conducted the tests to improve the sagging the image of the party?

I can't say that. But we are still not convinced about the timing of the tests. Even after several rounds of discussions, they could not convince us about the timing. Also, we don't approve of their actions and utterances after the explosion. It has damaged the interests of the country a lot. It was because of that we are isolated in the world now, and not because of the explosion.

So, you are not against the nuclear tests.

We are not convinced about the timing of the test even now.

Defence Minister George Fernandes said there were security threats to the country. Do you feel that way?

I am an outsider. Only the government will know the developments.

But in Parliament, I K Gujral said when he handed over power, there was no security threat at all.

Yes, he said, as long he was the prime minister, there was no security threat to the country at all. Only the present prime minister can explain the current situation. But as a country we must stand together against the sanctions. At the same time we cannot totally ignore the international public opinion. So, at least now the Government of India should do something to repair the damage caused by their actions and utterances. They should learn to behave in a mature manner. They should understand that they are no more outsiders, no more an Opposition party, they are the ruling party. So, they should behave as a mature political party. They should not play politics on matters concerning the security of the nation. We can have politics in other things. They must try to build a national consensus on matters concerning national security and foreign policy, like we had been doing from Panditji's time.

Can a poor country like ours, where 400 million people are under the poverty line, afford to spend so much on defence purposes?

Yes, we have our own problems. We have problems along the borders too. When technology is advancing all over the world, our defence force will demand the most sophisticated weaponry. There is nothing wrong in making our defence forces strong.

What should be given priority, drinking water or nuclear weapons?

We have to develop these things. We must be ready for any eventuality but whether to use it or not is another matter. It should be developed only for national security and not to create war hysteria. With our neighbours, we must have dialogue. That was the policy pursued by our previous rulers and it was the correct method. Yes, some of our neighbours are trying to create trouble for us to weaken us, but even then instead of confronting them, we should try to soften them through continuous dialogue.

I have asked this question to all the Congress leaders I have met, and let me ask you also. Why is it that the Congress party is falling back on the Gandhi family again?

This is democracy. The Congress party by and large feels the Nehru family has got some emotional influence and inspiration on Congressmen irrespective of their religion, language, etc. Congressmen all over the country feel it is the only family which always inspire us.

Is it not undemocratic?

How can you call it undemocratic? Nobody imposed themselves on the party. Congress workers want the family.

Is this not dynastic rule?

What is dynasty? Every five years, we are going to the people. See, we have one-member private limited parties too. I do not want to name any party.

How long do you think the BJP government will last?

They have their own convictions. We are not in a hurry. We know our limitations. We will, of course, remain a responsible Opposition party.

Is it because Sonia Gandhi is the leader that you are not in a hurry? Earlier Sitaram Kesri was a man in a hurry.

Whether you like it or not, the BJP came to power through the people's mandate. We do not have the mandate or numbers. Now we have enough time for introspection. When you are in power, you have no time for that. Sitting in the Opposition is in a way a natural therapy for the party.

Don't you feel the image of the Congress got tarnished because it pulled own the United Front government?

In 1996, after Vajpayee resigned, if the Congress had not supported the United Front, we would have had an election then itself. In fact, the Congress delayed the election by two years. But after taking our support, they wanted to destroy us.

But people blame the Congress for forcing a mid-term election.

That is because we did not explain properly to the people. See, we might have had an election in May 1996 itself! We delayed the election by two years. That is the only fault we had committed. But still we are blamed.

The Rediff Interviews