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The Rediff Election Interview/ George Fernandes

'The Marxists are the biggest opportunists'

If the situation is such that the BJP chooses to form a government with its allies, what do you intend to do?

We have the experience of the 1996 election. In 1996, the BJP didn't have a majority. Ours was perhaps the first party which held the national executive meeting. We passed a resolution, and I took a delegation to the President. And, citing earlier experiences, we insisted that Atal Bihari Vajpayee should be invited to form a government.

Accordingly, the President invited Atal Bihari to form the government. As Atalji received the telephone call from the President, telling him that he has got the mandate and that he would be sworn in the next day, at his home my party colleague Nitish Kumar and I were present and the BJP leadership was also present. He insisted that I should be sworn in the following day with him. I said no. Not unless we have a common minimum programme.

We said we can do the CMP tomorrow, the day after, but you have to be sworn in. I said no. This is a matter on which there will be no compromise. My party has a position on this and, once we have a CMP which is acceptable to both of us, then we are willing to be sworn in. That will be our position in 1998 also. There would be no difference in it.

How are you going to tackle Rashtriya Janata Dal chief Laloo Prasad Yadav in Bihar now that the BJP has aligned with another under trial?

I feel that all criminals -- when I say criminals I include all those who might be the most glamorous in the world, who could have access to the Rashtrapati Bhavan every second day; I couldn't care less; anybody who is guilty under the Indian Penal Code or any law of the land -- are just criminals. I believe that Laloo's alliance today with Sitaram Kesri's Congress implies that it is an alliance of criminals. We treat all of them with the same yardstick.

To me it doesn't matter if somebody speaks extraordinarily good English -- and yet he is one of the biggest criminals insofar as robbing the exchequer is concerned -- or another fellow behaves like a buffoon and is the biggest looter of the exchequer. It doesn't make any difference to me. I consider a criminal a criminal, a crook a crook. And the bigger and the more educated and sophisticated to me he is a bigger and a more rotten criminal.

As to how we deal with them in this election. Well, in the last election, Laloo swore that he would not let Nitish Kumar and George Fernandes enter the Lok Sabha. He spent the last three days of his campaign sitting in my constituency. I polled 489,000 votes which was the highest polled by any candidate out of the 54 constituencies in Bihar. He is making similar threats this time. But I have reasons to believe that the Election Commission has learnt from past experience and therefore will see that his criminal activities are not allowed.

Second, the bureaucracy should be aware that there would be a change in the government in Delhi and will not behave in the same manner it did last time, obliging him wherever possible. They were guilty of many criminal acts. I hope they won't do that this time. Third, with the kind of situation prevailing in Bihar, the people will also assert to a point where criminality and criminals wouldn't be tolerated.

How do you differentiate between charges against Laloo Prasad Yadav and those against the BJP's ally Jayalalitha Jayaram?

I don't make any differentiation, and I have said so publicly. And that is why when the news of the alliance was first conveyed to me, I reacted saying that I wouldn't have done it. When I got the details of it, I said I am sorry I can't go along with it.

Analysts say the Congress will lose 40 to 50 seats of the 141 seats it had in the 11th Lok Sabha. The loss must obviously be from the south. But the BJP is not a major player in the south. So which party, according to you, would get these seats?

The BJP will improve its tally from the south. And other parties like Ramakrishna Hegde's new outfit, the Pattali Makkal Kachi which has an alliance with Jayalalitha, the Marumalarchi Dravida Munnetra Kazagham and such other parties would get these seats.

What do you feel about Communist Party of India-Marxist general secretary Harkishan Singh Surjeet's reported statements about forming an United Front government with Congress support?

It only shows that the Marxists are the biggest opportunists in the country at the moment. They called the Congress the most corrupt and communal, and then they joined hands with it in order to save the corrupt and the communal elements amongst themselves. They had no problem in aligning with Laloo Yadav. When they found that Laloo Yadav was costing them votes, they gradually distanced themselves from him. Now when they find that they need someone's back to do some piggyback riding, they are once again trying to join hands with those who brought the country to this sad pass. When there is an attempt by the Left to ally with the Congress, there cannot be a worse kind of a degeneration for the Left movement in this country.

Do you envisage a total change in the political scenario of the country once the BJP comes to power with the help of its allies who do not share its convictions and believe in its agenda?

Yes. I believe so. I believe that ideological politics would return only when the Congress is reduced to -- I won't say nought because nobody ever gets reduced to nought in politics... after the Congress has been shown its place. And after the centrist parties, who rely on caste and other arguments to remain afloat, are reduced to inconsequence.

And whether you like it or not, the BJP has an ideology. The ideology of Hindutva. You may disagree with it. It is a very potent ideology. Ideology can be confronted with a more powerful ideology and not by one point or one word slogans.

Hence I believe that once an ideologically-oriented party, an organisationally well-structured party comes to power, then anybody who wants to confront it politically will have to go in for his or her own ideology. So I can see the possibility of politics becoming real after the BJP and its allies win the election.

Are you comfortable with other elements in the Sangh Parivar like the Rashtriya Swamsewak Sangh or the Vishwa Hindu Parishad or the Bajrang Dal?

I disagree with them on umpteen things but at a personal level I have the best of relations with everybody. Just as I have the best of relations with the Muslim League. Because I have always felt that in politics one should confront everyone on issues and one shouldn't cut off all dialogue at a personal level.

We have learned that some multinationals have approached BJP economists, asking them whether George Fernandes would behave the same way he did in 1977, throwing out Coca-Cola and IBM, when he is made a minister if a BJP government comes to power. And the BJP has assured the MNCs that nothing of that sort would happen. What do you say?

I am not surprised that they should be doing this. When V P Singh was about to become prime minister and after the formation of the Janata Dal in Bangalore, I had written to both the CEOs of Pepsi and Coke not to enter India.

Pepsi had already entered India by bribing the then government. Yet the final clearance was not given. They sent their vice-presidents. They came and met everybody close to V P Singh and wanted an assurance that George Fernandes would be dealt with properly. And they were given this assurance by the V P Singh coterie also. So I am not surprised that they are making similar bids this time too. But I don't believe it is George Fernandes who fights the MNCs, it is the people who fight the MNCs. It would be a big fight and I can assure you that I'll be part of it.

Would 1989 repeat itself or 1977?

In 1989, I failed because I was alone in my government. In the Cabinet -- and I am not letting you into any of the Cabinet secrets -- I stalled singlehandedly the Pepsi application for six months. And then the Pepsi fellows got their clearance: one against all.

I had to face the humiliation of being told by someone who was sent to me by Pepsi to inform me: ''Mr Fernandes, all that you achieved was that, earlier we had Rs 35 million. Now we had to pay another Rs 50 million in order to get our clearance.'' There couldn't have been a bigger humiliation than that for me to be told that they were able to purchase my government too.

As long as I have any strength within me I will fight. I can speak for myself. I can't speak for a government that will be formed. I don't know what the composition of that government will be. What the end-policies of that government are going to be, which would be known only when the time comes. At this point of time I can only say that my fight will continue.

If you are made industries minister again, how will you resolve the Maruti-Suzuki tussle?

I will proceed in the best national interests. I believe that no MNC has my nation's interests, they have their nation's interests. And their interest are only on profits. I would be guided only and only by my national interests in anything that I do.

The Rediff Election Interviews