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Interview/ Dr Murli Manohar Joshi

'The worship of Saraswati is a secular concept'

Dr Murli Manohar Joshi has absolutely no time. He doesn't suffer fools patiently. At the same time, he is frank, blunt and believes he is totally transparent. In this interview with Aditi Phadnis, conducted in his office one Sunday afternoon (he had already packed in one long meeting, dictated many letters and cleared a boxful of files in the morning), he explains why he is what he is and what the world looks like from where he sits.

Many believe your motives are suspect. Did you really want to ram home the BJP agenda in the state education ministers' conference?

The Saraswati Vandana issue was more politically motivated. I was surprised at the objections raised by some people at the education ministers conference. The Vandana has been a part of functions of state or central governments for years. Last year, during I K Gujral's prime ministership, the welfare ministry had a function which had Saraswati Vandana listed on the agenda, just like this time. All those who are raising objections now were supporting that government. Just because there is a BJP-led government at the Centre, they are trying to impute motives to us.

The worship of Saraswati is a secular concept: you are worshipping learning. Many Christian and Muslim institutions also have a lamp-lighting ceremony. Saraswati belongs to the mainstream of intellect -- Ustad Allauddin Khan used to have musical recitals in Maihar at a temple for Saraswati. These people don't understand the basic Indian ethos and psyche. Opposition to Saraswati is opposing India's intellectual contribution to the world.

But when Saraswati Vandana is done at a state function by those people who promised to protect the Babri Masjid but brought it down, it is a little hard not to be suspicious. Maybe you should just have called it prayers'....

I don't want to say anything on this because the Babri Masjid does not occur anywhere on the national agenda of governance to which I am committed as a minister. But to oppose Saraswati Vandana doesn't indicate secularism. It just shows a distorted version of history and culture.

If you're a minister who is committed to implementing the national agenda, don't you think you compromise yourself as a member of the BJP?

We are in a coalition government. When you form such a government, you leave some things behind. You can only implement the agenda acceptable to the coalition. Every party has its own agenda -- as does the BJP. But if everyone decided they would implement only their own agenda, this government wouldn't work.

So as a member of a coalition what do you want to do for education?

I believe there must be universalisation of education. This is an absolute must. India is capable of being a highly literate country. Our problem is the low rate of literacy among tribals, scheduled castes, women, backward classes and some minorities.

Why only some minorities?

Because Christian minorities in Kerala and Mizoram are already highly literate, as are Muslims living in urban areas. Those who live in remote rural areas need help.

We have increased the budget for minorities' education by 30 per cent from Rs 100 million to Rs 130 million. I'm also meeting the Urdu Development Council to see how we can help Urdu.

But how do we fund all this?

According to my estimate, for universal education we need an additional allocation of Rs 1,250 billion in the coming Plan to achieve this. Either we bring these resources from somewhere -- or we evolve some other cost-effective way of taking literacy to these areas.

I'm making serious efforts in this direction. My adversaries ruled for years and didn't bother to do this. Now this government has declared it will do it. So they're worried.

It is my government that announced a scheme for free education for women till graduation. No one else has been able to do this. How can you say we are not forward-looking? We want to involve the educated youth in taking education to their towns and villages. There is nothing new in this: it was Mahatma Gandhi's dream. How can you say we want to implement a partisan agenda? For me, as a teacher, it is a social responsibility. Society helped me to study. I have to give back something to it. Even the Kothari Committee recommended this.

That is why I have recommended the constitution of a National Reconstruction Corps through which the energies of Indian youth will be utilised. This I must say to all our critics: so long as we're committed to the national agenda, whatever we've been voted in on, will have to wait. Take higher education. There are some accepted facts. I have always said that higher education, science and technology and industry should come together and plan for 15 to 20 years: decide what type of courses and training should be followed so that education is dovetailed with the needs of society.

Then why is the BJP constantly harping on Vedas and Upanishads and boasting about how India doesn't need anything from anyone because we had the Pushpak Viman technology before anyone else? The BJP bends over backwards to give an impression that it is anti-technology, anti-modernity.

How can you say this? My first priority is to emphasise the role of information technology in human resource development and economic development. The first Indian institute of information technology has been approved. The recommendations of the task force have been accepted and 100 acres of land has been acquired. The Cabinet should give its approval soon.

I want to develop a scientific temper. We have drawn up schemes for talented boys and girls -- class X upwards -- to associate them with the Centre for Scientific and Industrial Research so that they can get exposed to science and its uses in society.

Science is a continuing process. The Indian mind was scientific many thousand years ago. The Ashoka Pillar in Qutub Minar was forged out of an alloy that hasn't rusted for 1,500 years. Shivaji's maps show an advanced knowledge of navigation. The paintings in the caves of Ajanta and Ellora were done with vegetable dyes -- and have withstood the vagaries of nature for centuries.

Now we have Param and Anupam -- the two computers. Indian software is the best in the world. When technology has been denied to us, we have gone ahead and developed that technology. I feel proud that I am the one who has succeeded in getting May 12 declared as Technology Day.

There is a feeling that you want to cut down on the spiritual content of education provided by the minorities...

Quite wrong. It was at our suggestion that the UNESCO declaration on higher education included the proviso that education must have a higher spiritual content. Without values in life, it is difficult to function in a democracy -- where you have shared achievements as well as deprivations.

When you took oath as minister, did you swear in the name of god or in the name of the Constitution?

In the name of god.

How do you assess your government?

The prime minister has shown that he is keen and sincere in implementing the national agenda. The government has taken great pains and patient negotiations to solve problems that have remained unsolved for 30 years. Take the Cauvery accord.

But the Cauvery episode pretty much resolved itself. The Karnataka government withdrew its objections after the court threatened it. Very little credit goes to your government.

Whatever it was, it was done under the prime ministership of A B Vajpayee. It shows the PM is sincere in wanting to do things by consensus. He has now announced some practical steps for the speedy recovery of the economy. There may be some little difficulties that remain unresolved.

Such as?

Such as Bihar.

Bihar is much more than a little difficulty. The President of India refused your recommendation. It was a slap on your face. The same thing happened on the shifting of Enforcement Director M Bezbaruah.

The point is that the leadership of the prime minister has been firmly established. It is this leadership which determines the quality of government.

What happened in Delhi was also inexplicable. You saddled an obviously reluctant chief minister with the job of winning an assembly election in less than a month and banished her predecessor to vanvas.

It was a well-thought-through decision. If it had been taken earlier, maybe there would have been fewer jerks. It was a question of human management.

But the chief minister continued to be reluctant. It took a statement from the prime minister to say that she would continue to be the chief minister.

There are also other states. The choice of the change of guard was a result of the fact that the situation needed a change.

Your own sister organisations don't find the government satisfactory. The VHP has been criticising the home minister consistently...

I don't deny any one the right to criticise. But the home minister has been doing his best, trying to improve the situation. Problems have accumulated for many decades. It needs time to set things right. In the north-west, our neighbour has been active. It is desperate and it wants to create disturbance. In Jammu and Kashmir, there is positive improvement.

There is no neighbour active in the North-Eeast. You have declared an amnesty for militants but there is no attempt to fill the vacuum, so all the militants are just utilising this opportunity to regroup overground.

The situation is terribly complicated in the North-East. There are ethnic factors: the Kukis, the Nagas, the Khasis, etc. What needs to be done is not just administrative but psychological. It will take time.

The home minister has himself said that your government doesn't deserve to be raja if it can't protect its prajas?

That was a transparent statement that it was the duty of the government to protect the people.

The families of those who died in Prankote don't want transparency. They want protection.

The statement simply shows the keenness to perform.

What are you most proud of doing in your ministry?

There is a direction and a demonstrated desire to make India literate -- not just in the three Rs but also in computers.

Kind courtesy: Sunday

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