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The Rediff Interview/Uma Bharati

'I have matured a lot since the old days'

Uma Bharati has been in the public eye since she was three years old, when she could miraculously give religious discourses to riveted audiences. Her oratory skills are still very convincing, and she has always been able to put forward the most radical and extreme views as rational ideas.

While in the Opposition, she publicly voiced her support for controversial issues such as the building of the Ram temple on the site of the Babri Masjid, banning the entry of foreign multinationals into the Indian market, etc. Now that she is in the government, as the minister of state for human resource development, her outbursts seem to have been curtailed.

In this interview to Suhasini Haider, the so-called 'sexy sanyasin' admits her views have toned down lately, primarily because of 'a growing process' she says she has gone through.

What are some of the programmes that you have started since taking over as minister of state for human resource development?

The most important of all my programmes is the one that was announced by the prime minister on August 15, namely the nation-rebuilding programme. Under this, we will ask the youth to voluntarily give one year of their lives to some sort of socially beneficial project. They can choose the nature of this work; some may want to work on the environment, some on cleanliness in their city, some on education, etc. We will pay them a stipend of Rs 500 every month.

But the work they put in during the year will not be a guarantee of employment. We want them to take up this programme with a completely selfless attitude. This year, we hope to have about 1,000 volunteers enrol in the programme. And I think once the project gets going, we will get millions of student volunteers.

This nation-rebuilding plan is now in the final stages of planning and will be launched on January 12, 1999.

What did you think of the uproar at the recent education minister's conference over the singing of the Saraswati Vandana?

I consider the incident very unfortunate. I felt that the fuss was being made only because the Bharatiya Janata Party is in power. After all, previous governments have had the Vandana sung at their functions, but no uproar followed. The objection to the Vandanahad no basis at all. Saraswati is the goddess of learning for all, not just for Hindus. We have Muslim children in our Shishu Mandirs too. When the Vandana is sung there, no Muslim objects to it. So I feel the objections must have been politically motivated.

There were also allegations that the BJP was trying to sneak in an RSS agenda into their paper on education.

So what is wrong with that -- if there is some good in an RSS policy, what is wrong with implementing that? You may object to some policies of the RSS, but it isn't as if they do no good work at all. I think people who object to the RSS as a whole, should have their heads examined. If there is something you object in the RSS, then say that; don't dismiss all their work.

What is the truth behind stories that you and your minister, Murli Manohar Joshi don't see to eye on many issues?

These stories are completely false and baseless.

Some even say that you haven't been going into your office as protest against Dr Joshi...

That's false too. In fact, I've just held a meeting there today.

Why are you against the government's effort to introduce the insurance bill in Parliament?

I wouldn't like to speak about that, because I have never publicly criticised the government on this issue. What I have wanted to say, I have said within the confines of the party only. This is an internal matter. I definitely have some views about the bill, but I will only express my views at the right platform.

As far as the economic agenda goes, you are one of the staunch proponents of Swadeshi. Do you find that the BJP government is moving away from Swadeshi?

You see, when you are in the Opposition, there are no conditions placed on your policies. But the moment you come to power, all kinds of unforeseen considerations have to be taken into account, and you have to modify your policies. Swadeshi will always be a part of the government's economic policy, it has been there since the time of Mahatma Gandhi. Gandhi fought the British on the Swadeshi platform. So governments may come and go, but Swadeshi will always be a part of their policies.

How do you account for your party's defeat in Madhya Pradesh, which is also the state that you are elected from?

We didn't lose. We had obviously won according to the exit polls. We were defeated on the counting tables. They (the Madhya Pradesh government) had planned to 'manage' specific seats, which led to our defeat. Not that we were going to have a thunderous majority, but enough to have formed the government.

In fact, I would like to ask for some agency to hold an inquiry into just how we won the exit polls and lost the election. The Congress had the entire state machinery working for them. And they chose to rig the election in seats where we would have won by a small majority, say of less than a thousand votes. I know of at least one case in Tikamgarh, where a candidate who had won by 511 votes was then announced defeated by 1,100 votes. And this kind of thing happened in at least 15 seats -- which is the size of their majority.

What about your party's losses in Delhi and Rajasthan?

There were different reasons in each state. In Delhi, the price rise was the big issue. It is an issue that affects people immediately and they react to that. In Rajasthan, I felt our workers weren't really motivated to work and do their best.

Do you approve of the attacks by Shiv Sena activists on cinema theatres showing the film Fire?

I don't think it is necessary to produce films involving sex or violence, and I personally don't approve of screening them. And if the people who made the film feel it is their personal right to express themselves this way, they should not object to other people, who don't like the film to criticise it as they exercise their right to expression too. Of course they shouldn't resort to violence for this, I think that the violence was wrong.

Defenders of the film say that it is wrong to criticise the film for depicting lesbian relations, as lesbianism is a part of Indian culture. What do you feel, especially as you represent Khajuraho, where such depictions are said to exist even in temple carvings?

I am sorry but I have not heard of any lesbianism in India. Maybe that's because I don't belong to the same society as the society the film-makers have depicted and seem to know something about.

Do you support the women's reservation bill?

Yes, I definitely think the women's reservation bill should be introduced in Parliament and debated upon. And if during the debate, it emerges that special reservations should be made for scheduled castes /scheduled tribes and other backward class women, I would definitely support that. Because our politics is still run by the upper castes in India. Even today, politics is classified caste-wise, clan-wise, and then gender-wise. And women of the backward classes find it very difficult to make an entry in politics, and the bill should make special provisions for them.

Why is that every party says that they support the bill, but when it comes to introducing it, they all hesitate?

That is because nobody wants to publicly oppose the women's reservation bill and earn the anger of women. So they will never say that they won't allow the bill to be passed. They just try to trip it up or stall it in other ways. I don't think Mulayam Singh Yadav and Laloo Prasad Yadav want the bill at all, judging by their attitude.

If the BJP is so committed to this bill, why don't you just allocate 33 per cent of the party's tickets to women?

We would like to, but the women just don't come forward. And the ones that do, might not be able to win their seats. Once we have reserved seats for them, they won't hesitate to fight other women, and will be keen to stand.

Do you find a big difference between the freedom you enjoyed in the Opposition versus your responsibilities as a minister?

No, there isn't much difference, except there is a lot more pressure I feel due to my workload. I do feel that I can't speak as freely anymore. But what I really want to say, I just say anyway, but in private not in public. And our prime minister encourages us to express our views to him.

So you don't feel that you have been tamed by being in government?

No, because, I have also matured a lot since the old days. As an individual, I feel I have changed and grown a lot in the last few years.

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