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The Rediff Interview/Kushabhau Thakre

'The norms of a single-party government cannot be enforced on a coalition government'

A t the Bharatiya Janata Party's central office, one might have seen him on numerous occasions, but his is not a visage that springs to one's memory, and that is how Kushabhau Thakre, the BJP's newly elected president would like it to be. To call him self-effacing, would be to understate the fact and the person. But his importance to the organisation has never been in doubt, even as the media-savvy Pramod Mahajans, Sushma Swarajs and the Venkaiah Naidus have hogged the limelight.

One of the founder members of the BJP's earlier avatar, the Jan Sangh, Thakre is one of the most accessible national leaders on the scene today. And there is nothing apologetic about him when he recalls his RSS links; the 76-year-old, only the fourth president in his party's 18-year-history, is a hardliner, who doesn't mince words when he says a firm 'no' to the multinational corporations.

Thakre, who hails from Madhya Pradesh, the same state as Prime Minister A B Vajpayee -- with whom he goes back a long, long way -- doesn't need the 'whole-timers file to know who is doing what in the party, for he is known to have the party structure in the north on his finger tips.

The BJP president spoke to Rajesh Ramachandran about his belief in the RSS philosophy of a Hindu rashtra, coalition politics, his firm commitment to swadeshi and about leading the party in a 'de-ideologised situation'.

Buta Singh was chargesheeted before he was inducted into the Cabinet. So as far as he is considered, nothing had changed dramatically. So why was he sacked?

I think this was a right step. This shows that we are committed to the removal of corruption. That is all I want to say about this issue.

Wasn't the government acting according to Jayalalitha's dictates?

Not exactly. In a coalition government everybody tries to pressurise the government and that is a natural thing to happen. But everybody should see that the government runs. That is all.

L K Advani, in his presidential address during the national executive meeting, had said that the party should be de-ideologised and de-politicised. How can you as the party president work in a de-ideologised situation?

See, after all ideology gives direction to the party. A party which has no line can't go far. But many a time, you can't see everything on party lines, because various problems of the country are above the party line. Take the case of law and order, if we say that the people should live peacefully and that it is our agenda, can anyone, the Communists or the Congress, oppose that? So it is not our party programme but at the same time, if we implement it, many of our problems would be solved. Why can't we agree on some of these basic issues?

There is no ideological content in these issues. And if we can do that, then it would be a great boon to the country, that was what he meant in his speech. Everybody agrees that we should bring in socialism, there may be differences, but nobody differs on the issue of law and order, there can be many such things. Therefore Advaniji said let us rise above the party line. People expect a good government, their basic problems like water scarcity, unemployment and security should be solved. Ideology gives direction to the party.

But Advani was addressing a party forum.

Anyway, everybody should think about today; about what the country needs. It is not a bad government that we need. If we wait for a majority we would not be able to do many things that are necessary to make effective changes at the grass-root level.

Advani has said that ideology could not fetch allies or seats in 1996 and that it was compromise which brought you to power. But how would this affect the cadres who have been with you for just Hindutva?

We have gone through these stages long back. This is nothing new. In every province we have had a common front, we have fought with seat adjustments, and fought against each other, the party has gone through all these experiences.

This is a coalition government. That is a fact and you should accept it sportingly and gladly. Why should we have a feeling of guilt? We are not doing anything sinful. After all that is the verdict of the people. What can we do?

First the delay in giving the letter of support, then the unprecedented devolution of power to R K Kumar and now Buta Singh's removal. Isn't Jayalalitha calling the shots in this government?

See, the norms of a single party government cannot be enforced on a coalition government. So we can't think on those terms. A single party government's norms are different. We have to see that the government runs and solve the people's immediate problems. That should be the priority.

The new government has toed the WTO line and liberalised imports of even shaving cream, toilet soap and cricket balls. Is this swadeshi? If not, what is?

No, no, no. We want liberalisation, but don't want globalisation, because ultimately globalisation would come about. Let our industries first be strengthened so that they can compete with the global sharks. Many things have been done by the previous government and hence you have to toe the line. But our line is very clear. No consumer goods should be allowed into this country. Multinationals should not be allowed when we have enough talent in this country. When there is enough talent in this country for a particular industry we need not go for foreign technology or anything else.

And whenever they have refused to come it has been a boon to the country. America refused to give us a supercomputer and we Indians created a more powerful supercomputer. That was a boon, so they should refuse other things also. We would stand on our own feet. We should never forget that foreign aid is a small part of our economy. When compared to our domestic resources this foreign investment isn't much. Why shouldn't we be able to do without it? What is wrong in trying to stand on our own feet?

But you cannot do anything with just the stroke of a pen. They had signed the WTO agreement, therefore there are certain compulsions on this government too. We cannot just wish it away.

Advani has said that building the Rashtra Mandir (nation building process) is no different from championing the cause of Ram Mandir at Ayodhya. So will the Ram Mandir issue be kept alive along with the nation building process?

That point has also been cleared, that was there in our manifesto. We have not scrapped our manifesto. We have fought elections on that manifesto. But the strength given to us by the people is limited and we would act according to our strength. Things which we can't do, we will not do. But that doesn't mean that the point has vanished from our manifesto.

Fortunately, Gadgil, Indrajit Gupta, Chidambaram, they are all our good friends, they constantly remind us that aap ne chode diya, aap ne chode diya (we have left out these issues). I am thankful to them.

Right since the election, consensus has been a key word for the BJP. But there is hardly any agreement among your allies who are calling each other names. Why aren't you making any effort to arrive at a consensus, like having a co-ordination committee?

That is the job of the people who are in the government. There is already a co-ordination committee of leaders of various allies. They sit together and decide on many things.

But there is no formal committee with a convener?

I don't know, I don't understand the differences between a formal and an informal co-ordination committee. I know they sit together. There is a national agenda prepared by them and signed by them. Is there any article in the Indian Constitution about it: how a party should be run? How a co-ordination committee should be made? Who all should be the members? Who would elect them? I have not found any till date.

The Opposition has been crying hoarse that your party has a hidden agenda. What is your hidden agenda?

See, these people have been conspirators throughout their life. They never worked at the grass-root level, and have made compromises and conspiracies. Therefore, because of their own behaviour, they think everybody else is also like them.

We have no hidden agenda. There is only the national agenda which is out in the open. We are committed to that. If we do anything which is not in the national agenda, then they can cry, it is all right. But they can't oppose even a single point on the agenda, so they go on saying that there is something hidden. That only reflects their thinking. By these machinations they have destroyed their own party apparatus, their own government.

Aren't you a Rashtriya Swayamsevak even now?

Yes I am, and I will be. There is no conflict about that.

As a life-long RSS pracharak don't you identify yourself with the RSS's founding philosophy of a Hindu Rashtra?

You see, I am an RSS man; whatever it means. But that does not mean there is any conflict with my duties as a BJP worker.

My question was about your attitude towards the Hindu Rashtra philosophy of the RSS?

I am what I am. I am an RSS man, whatever it means. The RSS knows and the BJP people also know.

Coming from the same state, you have much in common with Prime Minister Vajpayee -- age, experience, bachelorhood and being a pracharak. Is there anything special about your relationship with Vajpayee?

I have a very cordial relationship with him which started in 1939. (Pointing towards a laminated black and white photograph kept on the nearby shelf) This is a photograph of Atalji and myself taken 35 years back. Dr (Shyamaprasad) Mukherjee is also there in the photograph addressing a public meeting, I am there and Atalji is there. We have been together.

When you are away from the madding crowds of Delhi politics, how do you spend your time?

I really crave for some time away from all this, but unfortunately I am not spared the punishment. Let me get some time, only then can I think about what to do with it.

How important was your rather long jail term during Emergency in shaping your political career?

My political career was not shaped by the jail term. I began my career much earlier, whereas the jail term was only in 1975. I spent my time in jail reading books. Fortunately, I used to get good books.

So that might have been one of those rare occasions when you could get away from politics and spent your time reading?

It is not a natural life for anyone in jail. I have been a voracious traveller, going somewhere everyday all 365 days. And I was confined to a single room for one-and-a-half years. But I utilised my time.

Now that the party is in government, how do you intend to tackle those unwanted elements who have crept in? How do you intend to tie up the loose ends in the party organisationally?

There aren't many problems. Our party worker is conscious of his duties and responsibilities that have been entrusted to him. No problem.

The Rediff Interviews