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The Rediff Business Interview/S Gurumurthy

'Indian discipline was destroyed by the Marxists'

Are you against privatisation as such?

There is nothing absolute about it. I feel society is far more important than the State and market. Each has its own place, privatisation, FDI (foreign direct investment), everything.

What about healthcare? Many are talking about health insurance.

It will be a disaster to allow health insurance to India. We should never commercialise healthcare. India can't stand it. China promoted traditional healthcare. We should do that like it was done in the Travancore region by the maharaja. But the present establishment has no respect for anything Indian.

Do you feel health insurance will cater only to the moneyed class?

It will be depriving the non-moneyed class. That's far more important. He will take over the traditional healthcare also.

Let me ask you about the public sector. Why is it that efficiency and effective management is better in a private organisation then a public sector organisation?

It is because of socialism. Most of the airlines in the world, 70 per cent of them, are unwed by governments. So how come only Indian Airlines fares badly? Lufthansa, Swiss Air, British Airways, all are government controlled. The list goes on. It is because of the havoc that the Marxists caused in India. Indian discipline was destroyed by the Marxists.

By stressing on rights, you mean.

No, by stressing on nothing. Stressing irresponsibility. Stressing on Godlessness. Unless a man fears God, he will not fear anybody in the world.

You, as the convener of the Swadeshi Jagran Manch, are talking more about dharma. So why do people associate your Manch with the economy of the country and as being against liberalisation.

Mindless liberalisation and aimless globalisation can completely destroy dharma. You see, after 50 years of communist experience, family life in China is the only thing that remained unscathed. Every other institution was destroyed. Family values escaped communism but it will not escape marketisation. Market will destroy all relationships including family relationships.

Why?

Because the market cuts into the family, straight. Money will be so dominant that nobody will be bothered about anybody. A man who earns more will say: I don't want to live with a man who earns less. I also will distance myself from my younger brother who will be earning less. Otherwise, he will come and make demands on me. Why should I arrange for my sister's marriage and education?

You mean, marketisation or liberalisation can strain relationships.

Is it not happening in America? In America, can you see a brother educating his younger brother? Tell me.

Yes, I think it is happening there.

Why will not the market do the same harm to India?

So, these are the evils of marketisation.

Not evils, they are implicit in it. What is evil is the market itself. You must know what its role is, and define and limit its areas.

Was it wrong on the part of India and Dr Manmohan Singh to liberalise our economy?

Basically we must understand all these problems, then we will be able to define the role of the market, define the role of the state, define the role of the society, community, locality and the family. You must have an integrated view of it. That Dr Singh attempted liberalisation without understanding the complexity of the situation is my complaint.

What kind of role do you define for the market?

My view is, smaller the market, the more efficient will be its role, and its evil will have less consequences. Larger the market, the greater the evil.

Are you against multinationals as such?

I am not against multinationals in India; I am against the concept of multinationals everywhere. Please understand, America also is a prisoner of multinationals. Do you think tooth cleaning has improved with Colgate? It is easier, but it is not the best. I have nothing personally against Colgate or its users. I am just giving an example. But do you think a system which is based on such assumptions is a sustaining institution? My view is that society will have to understand these implications, the State will have to understand, the enlightened intellectuals will have to understand.

What kind of harm these multinationals can do to a society?

What have they not done elsewhere in the world? They changed governments. In Columbia, British Petroleum killed people. What can uncontrolled money not do? The government will be smaller than the commercial corporation. Let us assume you have a multinational corporation in Kerala whose income is several times the Kerala government. What will happen then?

They will have a say in the policy making.

Yes, and who will have more say? They or the chief minister? These are the questions, and we are raising them. Five years back, the establishment people called us backward looking. Now they are admitting that there is something in what we say.

Was it wrong on the part of the government to liberalise our economy?

They should internally liberalise, not globalise as the first step.

Please elaborate on internal liberalisation.

(Prime Minister A B) Vajpayee announced the other day that FDI approvals up to Rs 15 billion can be done by state governments. You don't have to go to Delhi for everything. You must make the panchayats (local councils) operational, you must make the localities look after themselves, you must promote Exnora. But not Exnora international, no. That is wrong. Again you are forming another government. The local people must organise themselves and work.

If MNCs come to India, do you fear that they will eat away all our local industries and whatever we have in India?

Why do I fear? It is happening. I have nothing to fear. Personally I will be very happy. I am a chartered accountant. If I was not committed to swadeshi, I can be a consultant for all of them. Maybe my office will be in Nariman Point, in Bombay, and not here, in Madras. Personally I have no fear.

What I meant was fear for the country.

Yes, I fear for the country. I have not accepted any multinational company as my client though I am perhaps one of the best known in my profession. I have everything to gain personally. My income can go several times. It is only because I feel for this country and for the people. Otherwise, what have I got to lose?

Do you make it point to buy and use only Indian things?

There is no need for me to go for foreign things at all as my wants are limited and which local things can easily satisfy.

Do you consciously make an effort to pick up an Indian product?

Generally, my family and I use only locally made things, sometimes handmade things.

Can't we call some of our big industries also multinational companies?

I prefer an Indian dacoit to a foreign dacoit so long as we cannot avoid having dacoits around. I go that far. He will not bomb India while Dubai-based smugglers do.

Don't these big industries also have a duty to the society, other than making money?

You must understand one thing -- all industrialists are selfish. Unless you are selfish, you are not going to produce that kind of wealth. You have to go by layers of consciousness. The largest layer of consciousness in a country is nation. That is what we will have to ensure. In contrast, politicians who frame policies to favour multinationals pass off as a modern liberaliser, while a fellow who commits a theft in a house is a criminal. It is relative, still both are crimes, both have no commitment. The politician has no commitment to the country and this fellow has no commitment to certain values, that's all.

You said, all industrialists amass wealth. So, what is the difference between an insider and an outsider?

All Indian politicians are corrupt? Then why not elect a foreigner as our prime minister?

What about the duty of an Indian industrialist to the nation and society?

You must make them perform the duty. That does not mean that I will bring somebody from outside. We did that two hundred years back. Do you want to do it again? Our kings were not doing their duty and could not stand one another and so they brought the foreigners. The result was that we were enslaved for 100 years.

S Gurumurthy interview, continued

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