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The Vijay Mukhi ChatMicrosoftie (Wed Sep 18 14:40:19 1996 IST):
Hello...are we yet? Nikhil Lakshman (Wed Sep 18 14:47:13 1996 IST):
Hullo, Mr Mukhi.
Welcome to com:port
and thank you for inaugurating
infotech@india.
We hope you enjoy the Chat. Marc, Bark and Clark (Wed Sep 18 14:50:01 1996 IST):
Hi guys. What a ludicrous notion! Is this a Gates set-up or what? Microsoftie (Wed Sep 18 14:52:11 1996 IST):
Hey you Netscape guys...Microsoft RULES! N Myrvold (Wed Sep 18 14:52:24 1996 IST):
Even from my lofty perch in Redmond, I can say we are not going to have it easy. Even Explorer 4 may find it tough to shake Netscape's brand loyalty. No escape-Netscape (Wed Sep 18 14:52:44 1996 IST):
Microsoftie read this Marc, Bark and Clark (Wed Sep 18 14:53:26 1996 IST):
NETSCAPE RULES THE WEB! N Myrvold (Wed Sep 18 14:54:23 1996 IST):
Hi Dave, what you doing here? Dave Cutler (Wed Sep 18 14:54:51 1996 IST):
Hi guys, logging in from Redmond, WA. Is Mr, Mukhi in yet?
Hi Nathan....I see you are here too. Marc, Bark and Clark (Wed Sep 18 14:56:12 1996 IST):
GIVE US ONE REASON WHY GATES WILL WIN. SIZE IS NOT EVERYTHING!
Lets congratulate Rediff for setting up India's first on-line It resource on the Web.
I am sorry there has been a mistake in the title. It should read "Microsoft has already WON the battle for the Internet'.
That's one thing I agree with ----Congratulations Rediff
Dave Cutler: Are you the same Dave Cutler who wrote 'Windows NT?'
HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Myrvold: I hope you are saying this after using the Netscape Servers. They have a user interface that reminds me of Unix.
Hi folks. This is R.N.Raja and David Gurr, from SCO UK.
Mr Mukhi: What is your reason to come to such an conclusion...
What feautures doe IE3 have that makes it a winner ?Harrumpm!
Hey Mr. Mukhi....how can you categorically state that Microsoft has won the Internet battle?
Netscape has a better product by far!
Marc, Bark and Clark: I have one of the largest technology tutorials on the Internet. Most of them are not Microsoft based. To give you an exapmple - Servlets, Tclets, Inferno, Corba they are all there.
Mr Mukhi: What is your reason to come to such an conclusion...
Hello, Mr Mukhi, Can you give me 5 logical reasons in support to your forecast that microsoft will win the battle over netscape?
Take a vote, Mukhi. Take a vote. Netscape anyday. And stop gassing. Let us have some HARD FACTS!
Keyman-India: Six months ago, even Bill Gates wouldn't use IE. Today every review says that they are technologically at the same level. And also what market share?? when both products are free.????
Mr. Mukhi....there are rumours in IT circles that you have ghost writers for your tutorials. Is that true?
It is also reported that you pay handsomely for these ghosts to keep their traps shut?
(Not handsomely enough...since obviously somebody's opened their trap)
Mr Mukhi: Which window are you chatting on??
:-(
Mr Mukhi - Active X is a marketing ploy to divert attention (unsuccessfully) from Java
Read the latest TIME and FORTUNE. They have cover stories saying the same thing.
We must take issue with Mr.Mukhi's position on three key fronts:
i) You cannot conquer that which is not definable
(The Internet is not a "thing" to conquer)
ii) The advantages of large companies over small
competitors do not hold in the Internet space.
Small companies can (and do) effect massive change
(eg Netscape).
iii) The Internet is the embodiment of the co-operative, open systems world. The innovation of the many will always outweigh the innovation of the one.
Mr. Mukhi...keep up the PR for Microsoft....!
Is that why YOU are saying the SAME thing? Plagiarism isn't a virute, yet
Keyman-India: what use of Java when it cannot write to my hard disk. It cannot connect to any machine on the Internet that I want. I prefer Acvtive-X it resides on my hard disk. No downloading each time. It uses C++ and pointers.
Mr. Mukhi: Java CAN connect to any machine to which permissions are granted.
Besides, what about security hazards of letting remote programs write to your disks?
Time and Fortune are not the gospel. If you
were acquainted with the American media,
you would know that Time Life Inc
right from Luce's time (Henry Luce 1898-1967
Time's founder in case you don't know)has an
unfortunate habit of aligning with its favorite causes.
Some may call this warped reporting.
We believe the latest stories are no exception.
Raja and David have a point Vijay. Defend us if you will!
Java applets too reside on your hard disk!
If you look at the number of Java applets and applications...there are thousands in use.
Active-X applications - about 10 ??
Dave Cutler: Sorry it is not PR for Microsoft. Six months ago I said that Microsoft is dead as a company. It is there on my site www.neca.com/~vmis. After using a lot of technologies on which I have written tutorials that the conclusion I have come across. After all it is politically incorrect to say nice things about Microsoft on the Internet. When I was anti-Microsoft, I collected over 300 pages of Bill Gates jokes.
Mr Mukhi: Can you shares some of the jokes with us!!!
Vijay: Microsoft has always won landslide in the software war. If Microsoft was to get a large piece of the Internet pie, it must have found Netscape and Oracle gaping. But , inspite of Bill Gates book "Information Highway" it is clear that MS did not play the game right. It is too late for MS to come back and win. Netscape will dominate the net software and Oracle the Net computer market.
Giving Active X control (sic) to an independent body is so transparent a ploy nobody will buy it !
Raja & David: All that I am saying is that Microsoft today has the best technology on the Internet. They are doing a very bad job at publisicing the fact.According to the Sept. '96 Netcraft survey, Windows NT is the single largest used operating system for servers running on the Internet from a single manufacturer.
Vijay: Microsoft has always won landslide in the software war. If Microsoft was to get a large piece of the Internet pie, it must have found Netscape and Oracle gaping. But , inspite of Bill Gates book "Information Highway" it is clear that MS did not play the game right. It is too late for MS to come back and win. Netscape will dominate the net software and Oracle the Net computer market.
So it is true that you are a turncoat! What decides your flavor of the month? Greenbacks?
How can you change you opinion about a company like Microsoft in less than a year. Obviously you do no research.
Like someone suggested - do you also have ghost researchers?
It makes a lot of sense for you too position your office around a cemetery!
Keyman-India: I also think it is a dumbidea. See what happened to committees --- Corba and VRML 2.0 are standard cases of why you should not have committees.
So
What Microsoft has won is the announcement wars not the browser wars -many announced features in IE3 do not work!
Now you've gone and offended Dave !!
You sure make no friends, Mr. Mukhi!
Dave Cutler: In six months Microsoft proved everybody wrong. Today they have some great technology so I say so. Also to date I haven't recieved a single cent from Microsoft.
About my GHOST RESEARCHERS: I work on technology I then dictate into a dictaphone someone transcribes it and then an editor edits the final treanscript. All people associated get their names prominently mentioned at the bottom of the tutorial. I am sure I am not commiting a crime.
It's interesting that Nathan Myrvold thinks we have hit some key nerves.
Mr. Mukhi, what's your opinion on the points we raised earlier ?
Does anyone want to contribute to the IE3 'does not work' features list?
Mr. Mukhi, How will Microsoft conquer the Internet
Microsoft is simply resorting to its old techniques of announcing features and SDKs! Nothing really works! What about VBScript? Is there even one independent site that has added VBScript support to its site?
Pravin Kumar: If I cannot have an applet write to my hard disk, then what use are applets to me ???. Today the majority of the applets I see on the web are ticker tape applets which can be written using Tclets faster.
Pravin Kumar: Unfortunately everyone on the Internet pre-announces. Can someone tell me when Java beans would be released??
Keyman-India: Most of Netscape other than Live connect works.
I can contribute: Javascript openWindow function doesn't work!
Not to mention all the latest additions to JavaScript!
Dear Mukhi,
What do you think is going to happen with the non-PC based internet devices. How do you think then Microsoft will dominate the market.
Ravi Manian: How would Netscape make money to survive when everything is Free???
Mr Mukhi, as BG's alter ego, thanks for the good work!!!
Mr Mukhi, as BG's alter ego, thanks for the good work!!!
Vijay, I just can't understand Why are they waiting for $ 500 dump terminal, where as they can buy a 486 PC today in less than that.
There's little point in debating the relative merits of the technology when there's some more fundamental reasons why Microsoft (or any single, large organisation) cannot be a dominant force on the Internet.
Anil Balan: Everyone is talking of the Network Computer. I have my resrevations. Its too early to decide whether it would succeed or not. It is more a question of economics-pricing. I don't think you can make microprocessors cheaper than Intel does.
But Netscape also does add a lot of very useful features without any hype - In fact you chance upon them deep in the recesses of their documentation and then it's such a joyful feeling!
Of course your happiness is shortlived as soon as you discover that Microsoft's IE most probably doesn't support that feature :-(
Sukhvinder Singh Gulati: We agree with you.
William Windows: We are sorry that we are not BG's alter ego. He has great technology - we say so.
Mukhi, don't you think that Microsoft has more hype than hope. Just by having millions of dollars you cannot dominate the net. Also in this industry late comers become LATE _____.
Pravin Kumar: Can you give us a specific example. In my case I have tutorials on Livewire, Live connect plug-ins byut I cannot get NSAPI working. Whereas ISAPI from Microsoft is pleasure to work with.
Mr. Mukhi as I see from the discussion so far, why do you think that so many people are pro-Netscape against hardly any pro-IE chatters. The very fact goes to show how unpopular it is. And what use is technology if the users arent satisfied???
Anil: I don't see the hype. Why don't you see their technologies. Netscape had two year lead in browsers. Today Microsoft is on par. No hype there.
chip: Microsoft has never been a loved company but yet millions use their software. WHY??
What could be the strategy to overcome the 80% marketshare that Netscape already has. And why would millions already using Netscape want to switch over to a new interface viz IE3?
Mr. Mukhi, you seem to be concentrating on purely the technical issues.
We take it that your unwillingness to discuss the more fundamental aspects of Microsoft's flaws in the Internet space stems from lack of a sound argument.
Pravin Kuma : Microsoft makes IE and try to provide the Java features as much as possible, because of their commitment to interoperability and to embrace industry standards. We at Microsoft inovate and attempt to enhance those standards. Of course during that time the technology evolution is not at a stand still. May be in near future you will find all those and many more feature. But do look for what IE provides and Netscape does not.
Ok...I do concede that! Anyway, maybe we should end this Microsoft/Netscape bashing session :-)
Mr. Mukhi, what's the status on the Internet scene in India. There are stories about how VSNL dominates and prices are high, reliability is low...!
You guys don't even have T1 lines yet. I wonder how Rediff manages to run such a successful and popular web site on a 64 kbps link!
Raja & David: Why don't we be more specific? What are the fundamental flaws that Microsoft has in the Internet space??
Why is the progress of the net more slow in India than the rest of the world?
Pravin Kumar: I have no problems with VSNL's reliability its as good as anywhere in the world and we pay less than $1 an hour.
Mr. Mukhi if you will see I wasnt talking about loving/hating the company but the product. And you have side stepped the point
Mr Mukhi, we stated them at the outset of the chat! For reference: i) You cannot conquer that which is not definable - the Internet is not a "thing" to conquer. ii) The traditional advantages of large companies confer no benefit (and in fact are a liability) in the the Internet space. Small companies can (and do) effect massive change (eg Netscape). iii) The innovation of the many has always outweighed the innovation of the one.
Anil: We get decent speed of 14.4 and it takes me one hour to download a 5MB file. I am happy with it.
What about Net popularity? Has it invaded the home yet?
Do you have online transactions? What about security?I hear VSNL passwords float around like leaves - free for anyone to use?
Could you say the same about VSNL's reliability when users flood the net....
Raja & David: To develop software for the Internet you do need deep pockets. I really haven't seen innovative software from garage operations like we had during the early days of the PC.
Netscape has shown a table which clearly describes the various
quality differences between Netscape and IE. I was clearly of
the opinion that netscape is better since it uses less RAM, less
HDD space et al. What about it Mr. Mukhi ?
Where do you think ActiveX heading. Do you think that it can capture the JAVA market. There are rumours that ActiveX has not done so well in the market.
Raja & David: When a technology matures start-ups play a major role. Today you don't find new spreadsheets or databases and similarly its difficult to write a server that can compete against say Apache. I think the Internet (whatever the definition) has matured to a large extent. Even if a start-up launched a better Java it could not survive.
Mr Mukhi, if developing software requires deep pockets, we would not have seen the emergence of small companies like Netscape, nor the emergence of India as a leading software development country.
Why should developing software for the Internet require deeper pockets than for any other development area ?
Heck...someone's logged in as Praveen!
Now we are going to get confused!
Mr. Mukhi....I am logging in again as CuppaJAVA
Raja & David: For eg. Browser watch has a 117k HTML file listing plug-ins for Windows. Now can a start-up create another plug-in?? Today - difficult. Six moth ago-yes.
Here is the statistics on the Indian Internet scene--10,000 users of which 50% are shell acount; Bombay has 150 access lines with roughly half at 28.8k....catering to 5000 users
Mukhi I am still awaiting answers to my questions.
Praveen : Today the machine I work on has 64 MB RAM and a one GB hard disk. I hadn't paid alot of money for it. Six months ago I never imagined I could afford such hardware. I have brought up in an age where 4k was a lot of memory.
Mr. Mukhi, I'm back! What is your opinion about Internet chats?
Do you think what Rediff is doing is a good idea?
Technology wise, are you in favor of forms-based chats like these or IRCs?
Mr. Mukhi, it's not the costs of developing the software that prevents new spreadsheets or databases from emerging.
It's been the cost of gaining awareness, ensuring distribution and gathering commercial support for your solution.
The paradigm shift of the Internet has drastically reduced costs in awareness generation and distribution, levelling the playing field between large and small companies.
The traditional rule of thunb that large companies can crush small ones no longer holds.
Microsoft has now started a major support service centers in India which will be a profit centre for the centers. Where have we heard that Indian companies shall pay companies that they can make profit on services for products which are basically inexpensive. Paid service is not a commitment to the customers atleast.
Anil: Active-X will never be a mass market product because of the steep learning curve. However quality and the complexity of the Active-X objects will surpass Java. Java being easier to learn will have more applets but less complexity. I prefer C++ to Java programming anyday. Also because of the fact Java runs theoratically on all Opearting systems obviously it cannot look good.
Chip, who says that IE is not popular. probably you are confining your decision on the basis of this limited discussion. What is important is not how many people participate in the discussion but which is better. See the technology of both the products & decide.
What is technically so superior about Windows NT over Unix. If UI is the only thing, then it means that Unix can have a major market share if they had a more friendly intereface.
Ok..I get the idea. But at i also read that there is a
serious flaw in IE 3.0 wherein if a user acceses a page
the person can delete several files of the user's Hard disk.
This was even proved by writing such a program. With such
serious flaws do you think IE can go far. What are you doing about it ?
Raja & David: Today commercialization (did I spell that right?) is not the goal of every programmer.
Look at the number of good freeware and shareware programs on the net. If your program is really good it will sell itself.
I don't think Netscape's Marc Andreesen had a great marketing set-up. But his product was superlative and look where they are now.
I think you are just finding excuses for your lack of creativity.
Mr Mukhi, we don't see what relevance Browser Watch's listing page has to do with the ability of small companies to compete effectively with large companies in the Internet space.
What does your Widows refernce have to do with this ?
Anil: Active-X will never be a mass market product because of the steep learning curve. However quality and the complexity of the Active-X objects will surpass Java. Java being easier to learn will have more applets but less complexity. I prefer C++ to Java programming anyday. Also because of the fact Java runs theoratically on all Opearting systems obviously it cannot look good.
CuppaJAVA: I think they are a great technology , a good way of people all over the worl sharing ideas.
Vijay, I don't agree with you. Active X will ceratinly enter the mass market purely because of its popular OLE technology which has become a life of most of desktop users. Agreed Java will have more applets but just wait & watch MS commitment to interoperability will engulf this into their fold.
I agree with Mr. Mukhi on his reasons why Active-X will not pick up a large fan following in the near future.
But Mr. Mukhi, isn't what you are saying against Microsoft's technologies.
Today developers need environments they can learn in a jiffy and work creatively with them to solve end-user problems.
Raja & David: All that we are trying to say is that it is difficult for a startup to launch an internet product today. They are already too many players and getting noticed on the internet is getting more difficult. How many news sites on the internet carried the news of the beta of Inferno. Only one.
CuppaJAVA: On the contrary, Netscape re-invented marketing for the Internet space.
The discovered an awareness and product testing concept that was virtually free, enabling them to get their software into the hands of millions of users worldwide, whilst only being a (financially) small company.
Also, we're not sure who's lack of creativity you're mentioning ? The Open Systems world, Netscape, SCO, or just Raja and David ?
Vijay : I don't Agree.
ActiveX provides:
•Open, cross-platform support on the Macintosh, Windows, and Unix platforms. •Support from a wide range of tools, including Microsoft Visual Basic, Macromedia Shockwave, Adobe Photoshop, Borland Delphi, and Java™-enabled tools. •Built-in integration with key industry and de-facto marketplace standards, including HTML, TCP/IP, Java, and COM.
CuppaJAVA: With Java , everyone thought he could be a programmer, and hence he wrote simple applets. What we are saying is that ActiveX programming is not for the mild hearted. They should use products like Visual Basic. We are not saying that ActiveX will not succeed.
Mr Mukhi, what do u say abt the menace of browser clients growing fatter evry week ( they are both 6mb+ )...
Sukhvinder Singh Gulati: I have not in disagreement with you. But you do agree that you can't learn ActiveX in a day. That is all that I am saying.
Socrates: I do not remember any new version of software being smaller in size than the previous version.
Vijay : We are looking forward to a GUI based (Drag and drop controls) Active X development environment.
ok see you...thanks Mr. VIJAY MUKHI
Mr. Mukhi, for a marketing-savvy company, getting above the noise level on the Internet is not an issue.
Bell Labs (creators of Inferno) are a great example of a non-marketing company - after all they managed to keep UNIX a secret for almost 10 years.
In any case, the news of Inferno has spread ... to you, to me, and now to all particpants of this chat!
hi
Hello Vijay :
NutScrape VS Exploder sounds a nice topic to discuss
Are we going the bloatware way again?
I think Microsoft and Netscape both need to think in Internet terms and work on reducing
program sizes.
I think if a new company comes up with a 2 Mb browser with most features (the 90-10 law would apply)
it would sell along with the NC!
Raja & David : We wanted to know what Dennis Ritchie and Brian K were upto. I was disappointed at the news coverage about Inferno.
Vijay; You do agree that people should use VB instead of Active X. Why do you ignore the fact that with GUI and support for Visual Basic will suit the mild hearted also.
Bill Gates is a ********* !
Hisroshima 44 , Chernobyl 86 and Windows 95 :(
JavaDuke : But they are the only browsers we have today.
I am a die-hard net surfer, I would like to ask Mr MUKHI that what is the current level of web awareness in India and what are its future prospects
:-)
Hyphe: As good as anywhere in the world. Maybe a little slower.
Mr Mukhi, the poor news coverage was just due to Bell Labs' poor marketing.
It still holds that a good marketing company does not need to be a big company in order to succeed in the Internet space.
Small companies can still compete effectively.
Vijay:Have u guys noticed Real Audio has started charging for its client s/w -is this the start of a trend away from freebies?
Socrates: But yesterday I downloaded the Real Audio server free.
Vijay :
How are thing in India as far as Internetting is concerned ?
Raja & David : But Today can you name me any small companies which are visible on the Internet, Specific cases please .
Thanks Guys....
Mr MUKHI, what is the level of awareness of Internet in India, I mean besides the corporates and businesses
Bye and Thanks Guys....
Hyphe: Users outnumber business in India.
The RealAudio server - a limited version - is available for a 60 or 90 day trial period.
After that you have to pay!
What Microsoft really seem to be doing with their Internet activities is in defending their classic "thick-client" architecture against the emerging paradigm of server-centric computing.
This a good example of the liabailities of a large company in the Internet space - they are unable to re-engineer their business and revenue streams to fit the new business model, and so need defensive mechanisms in a futile attempt to stifle innovation.
I am a die hard Netscape fan , have used both of them for
my work purposes and i prefer Nutscrape , and am
sure its the case with most.
Bill Gates tries things like buying CompuServe ( a BIG ISP in US )
so that they run only IE . that shows how desperate he is
JavaDuke : What do you think about Netscape Servers vis-a-vis other Windows Servers. Doesn't the Netscape user interface suck?
JavaDuke - I think we all know who CompuServe is !
*indignant*!
Thanks Mr MUKHI, bye:))
Raja & David : Don't you feel that in 6 months Microsoft has changed completely?
Mr. Mukhi, here's some small companies visible (and successful) on the Internet.
Netscape, Macromedia, Progress Networks (RealAudio), Verity (search engines), Yahoo, Excite ... how long have you got ?
Mr Mukhi: Does Bill Gates know about you?
hi !
i appreceiate your discussion .
what do you think of CORBA ?
Raja & David: I thot you were the guys saying samll companies couldn't make it big on the Net *quizzical*.....or am I missing something?
Superhighway: No, either ways.
Cuppajava :
Sorry , wasnt meant to be offensive , but there are many people on this who're not in US
Raja & David: These companies are more than 6 months old. That is a decade on the Internet.
Why does Microsoft play such a spoilsport. They never want to publish their standards. Whenever the entire world agrees on something they would display their muscle to kill such products and companies (and feel great in doing so).
Vijay :
I have got used to this interface so much that I
find it difficult to get used to the other Servers
frankly.
Mr Mukhi, Microsoft haven't changed a bit. MSN was an attempt to destroy the Internet. Microsoft's current strategy is an attempt to dominate it.
For the reasons we covered below, this is a fundamentally flawed strategy.
JavaDuke: Problem with CORBA is that it is a committee product. Worked on VISIGENIC's CORBA , IBM's does not work with Visual C++ . Too few players who have products for Windows.
Vijay :
Rediff's profile of yours says that you thrive on sensationalism *SMILE*
so do we treat this as one too ?
JavaDuke: If you want to change one option , you know the pain you have to go through. Aren't Tabbed Dialog boxes better than Netscape as a user interface with Java Script?
JavaDuke : My views of Netscape are after spending hours working on them.
Mr. Mukhi, You asked for examples of small companies, and our argument was about the success of small companies, not necessarily new ones.
CuppaJAVA, you mis-read us! Our whole position is that the Internet levels the playing field between large and small companies, allowing small companies to compete effectively.
Raja & David: Thatwas true 6 months ago not today. I think that is where we disagree
Raja & David :
Its small companies that have made Windows 95 ,
i believe it was made in banglore , as long as
there are people like Gates , small companies stand
no chance .
my feelings
So you are saying that Microsoft are *not* trying to dominate the Internet ?
Vijay Mukhi: Times's up for me Nice being here See you in Cyberspace Sometimes . My url is http://www.neca.com/~vmis/
Microsoft has never had the 'BEST' of products.
just the 'MOST' widely used . that DOESN'T make them
a success story !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Hello mr. Mukhi...
he ran away ???? :-( , man i just came in !
keyboard : hi
JavaDuke, that's what even Microsoft thought about IBM.
Every few years there's a paradigm shift in this industry that turns things on their heads (to quote Doug Michels, "Shift Happens"), and challenges organisations to adapt quickly or die. Small organisations can adapt more quickly.
Raja & David :
True , but the problem is they're usually taken
over by the Giants.
Thanks for spending time with us today, I just came in and I guess it is too late. Hope to chat with you again soon, Bye.
Long live JAVA and the JavaDuke !
Long live JAVA and the JavaDuke ! |
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