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The Vijay Mukhi Chat

Any body ought there?

Hi

Where r u at??

Mr Mukhi: Most of the Internet users are on Unix platform. Microsft does not have products on UNIX.How can JAVA be dead? Long Live Java

Raju! 3-cheers for Java - Wah Wah

Good Morning, Good Evening, Good Afternoon Everyone. Can we start?

Next step: Mr Mukhi says Java is dead!

The King is dead , Long live the King . Java is Dead Long live J++.

Mukhi, you have been advocating JAVA for a long time now. Also you have put up a Java CBT on the net. Suddenly you say Java is dead. Java is probably just getting out of the cradle. And here you are, burying it there. Now be reasonable. How ridiculous can one get?

First point. J++ is better than Java. Anyone disagrees?

Welcome Mr. Mukhi. Where r u at ??

Yes, I disagree. Give me 5 reasons why you feel that J++ is better than Java?

Hey! what is J++??????????????????

luvjava : You are right, I have one of the most popular tutorials on JAva on the Internet. I was there when Gamelan was not even 10 listings. All that I am saying is that Java is a subset of J++.

luvjava: I have tried out every Sun Java sample on J++ , it works. As a C++ programmer, using MSDEV , J++ is a pleasure to use.

Oh,I thought you were saying that Java is dead!

luvjava: Also J++ is a COM object and hence can be used under any application under Windows and can use any COM object.

I think we always try to find some stuff and then try to put it as a subset of XXXYYYYZZZ

What is J++? Just a tool to develop Java programs. I think that is something like comparing C++ and Visual C++. If there wasn't C++ would there be VC++? Same goes for Java and J++

I really don't understand this media hype about Java. Can someone please tell me some practical use of Java other than products which will be written in the near future?

Mr. Mukhi: All this talk about COM objects! Tell me one practical use today for COM objects!

What good is C++? other than products that will be developed in the future?

Decoy: Java is applications and applets. Applets are crippled . They can't write to you hard disk and can't freely roam the Internet. So what use of Applets other than ticker tapes . Any Comments before we go on to the applications.

Mr. Mukhi, have u heard of NEXSTSTEP OS and programming language called objective -c?? If yes, then I can tell you Java is just (c++)+ Objective-C

Why would you want an applet written by some strange being to write to your hard disk? Why would you want to develop an applet that writes to other's hard disks?

Java is future technology. IBM is releasing the next version of OS/2, Warp 4 without 32-bit windows applications. It comes with Java runtime. All the companies worth their name are supporting Java including our friends at Microsoft. So Java definitely is the future!!

Applications written in JAva I would rather use C++ because all software under Windows is written in c/c++. All of JAva finally calls C/C++ code under Windows.

NEXTSTEP: We have heard of but not used objective C++.

luvjava: There is only one problem , should I use Java Beans of which there is no release date or should I use the Internet Foundation Classes from Netscape?

Mr. Mukhi: Are your statements made based on research and knowledge or are they just for the sake of media publicity?

Decoy : If an applet can't write on a hard disk then how do I have a word processor as a Java applet or send and receive e-mail . That is why today you use cookies.

Decoy : Which statement are you referring to ?

Mr Mukhi: You still haven't answered my quetion. Most of the Internet users are on the UNIX platform. Microsft does not have products on UNIX. How can Java be dead?

Most people do not have a primary use for the Internet. They develop applications in Power Builder, Oracle etc. With J++, I can write applets which can be called from my business applications and that is why I am saying use J++ instead of Java.

Almost all your statement! Lets take your last one for example. You are here to oppose Java. Then why are you in favor of Netscape's IFCs. If I am not mistaken they are meant primarily for Java developers!

MVR Raju: I think more people surf the Internet using Windows as a platform and not Unix. That is why Netscape normally releases their software for Windows first. Java for a long time worked only on Sun and Windows 95.

Hi Mr. Mukhi. I'm from Tuscaloosa, Alabama. Got up pretty early in the morning for this chat. Hope it's interesting...

Let me read the conversation and then I'll join in...

JAVA is object-oriented, distributed, intrepeted ,robust,secure,architectural-neural,portable,high performance, multithreaded and dynamic. Do u have anything that comply all the characteristics

Decoy: All that I am saying is that Java to start with gave you live html pages. Today , you have lots of options. If you have to write Internet ready applications you use C++ and not Java applications.

Java is already more than a year old. Can someone tell me where are the great Java applets that were supposed to change the face of the Internet.

What are you refering to when you say Internet ready applications?

The future of Internet applications will work something like this. The core corporate information will reside on the systems within the premises of the company and market information will reside on the Internet. People will start logging onto the Internet and use Java applets to get information from the legacy systems. With mobile computing and cosumer computing, JAVA will only get more and more popular and in demand. That's how I find Java growing.

I don't understand why r u emphasising c++ (which itself a very weak object-oriented language).

Ok....got it! Seems to be a war between the Java proponents and Mr. Mukhi. I am in favor of JAVA! So LET THE WAR BEGIN!

NEXTSTEP: That was quite a mouthful. Because is architectural neutral, I think it is a big disadvantage. Because it has to work with the lowest common denominator. A simple example. With C++ , it is a joke having a button with bitmaps. Try doing that in Java , also have you seen any good looking Java applets?

NEXTSTEP: Java looks like C++ without the heart of C++ - pointers.

NEXTSTEP: I know you NeXT guys are real loyalists, but move with the times. Steve Jobs failed to market a great system and now we have to live with the idiosyncracies of a glorified salesman like Bill Gates!

This world would have been a better place if Jobs had succeeded!

NEXTSTEP: Like C++ or hate it , it is a language of choice on all computers today. So whether it is weak on object orientation or not is not important . It is the de facto standard.

Nadu: Don't you think Bill Gates has made life easier for all of us. No worrying about which Unix is compatible with which other Unix.

Why are you so hell bent on using pointers? Don't you know pointers are the reason most programs crash? Memory management is probably the most tricky issue in the design of an OS and allowing the amateur programmer to directly manipulate memory is suicidal!

Decoy : If you don't know about pointers pray tell me how you can explain the concept of this in Java to the key rookie programmers . Pointers aid in understanding.

Decoy : Also passing by reference makes it easier if you understand pointers.

You think Windows makes life simple?? tell me Mr. Mukhi, have you ever heard of a General Protection Fault? It's something that Windows programmers have nightmares about. Also, 16-bit access to memory?? What can you really do with it today?

Mr. Mukhi If we have aa architectural neural object file format- the compile code can be eecuted on many processors,

So we can still use pointers to conceptualize. That does not mean we need to use them in the implementation!

Nadu: That was Window 3.1 . I have been using Windows NT extensively these days and I have never come across a GPF. Unders Windows 3.1 , millions.

What percentage of PC users have Windows NT installed on their systems? Or Windows 95 for that matter? And what is Windows NT modelled after if not UNIX?

NEXTSTEP : In theory , it works fine but even with Java the Java Runtime Engine has to be ported for all platforms. The Java RMI is yet not available for the Mac. Netscape is now coming out with browsers tailored for OS/2 and the Mac. There goes operating system neutrality.

Nadu : I don't know who has the numbers but Window NT is a breeze to use over Unix anyday.

NEXTSTEP: There I agrre with Mr. Mukhi. The portability hype is just a marketing gimmick. Analysed scientifically it collapses!

Lets get back to the original topic. Has anyone seen some great Java applets?

"Majority is not right always". And what to talk about c++, which doesn't have it's own run-time system. Objective-C provides u with all these features. It doesn't have pointers ( unlike c) and FYI Java has incorporated these features ( including Multithreading, dynamic resolution) from Objective-C

Decoy: We are not that bad. Thanks for agreeing.

So who is this guy who is making such ridiculous claims?

Well, I must admit not many. Except the Java chat programs are good. But I would atrribute that to a lack of creativity rather than a deficiency in the language.

NEXTSTEP: Problem with objective c is that it never reached critical mass. Good technology doesn't mean success in the market place.

Atul: What ridiculous claims?

Mr. Mukhi, whoever you are, how many applets have you written in Java and what sort of applications have you developed under J++ which are in use.

YAh! i have seen few applets. Pretty cool.

Decoy : We wanted to write an object on the Internet which could read out your e-mail. Because we had a com object which understood speech as well as ActiveX could save the e-mail to disk, we had no choice but to use ActiveX. We could have done the same thing with the Netscape Plugin. Given a choice I would rather use a plugin over Java and that is why there are million of plugins out there and not Java applets.

So now we are all converging on the point that no language is perfect by itself. All have their weak points and all come out strong somewhere?

Mr. Mukhi, can we get some input from you about the work you are doing at present? Where is the Internet heading at the moment? How is the software industry doing in India? I have heard you are quite actively involved in the activities of the Internet Users Club and the Microcomputer users club?

Atul : I have the largest Java tutorial on the net at http://www.neca.com/~vmis. I try and write the same code in ActiveX , Netscape Plugins, Live Connect , TCLets , Perl , C cgi , NSAPI , ISAPI and if possible Java .

"Good technology doesn't mean success in the market place." That's true. But, atleast u can try. But what about J++ ( which is neither technically superior and nor popular). Isn't sort of marketing gimmick to harp obn J++??????

I have seen some real neat applets written for a courier company in the US. They continously monitor info. on the exact status of the parcels. And a host of other client servicing needs. All this applets are written in Java. Have not seen much real world application work done under J++ yet.

Decoy : Our biggest problem with Java is that with all the hype, people think it is snakeoil. All that we are saying is that Java is one hundreth of what people think it is . Also microcomputers Users club has nothing to do with me and I have nothing to do with them.

Your list of programming activities seems quite impressive. Do you have a forum where you can discuss latest developments in these fields? If yes, how can I participate?

Well nice to know that you have a Java tutorial. But to me writing applications that work in the real world can only give flavor to the technology strength. Without doing this it would be a very premature statement to make. Rather childish, if you permit me to say so.

Decoy- it's a philosphical statement. "So now we are all converging on the point that no language is perfect by itself." I disagree. Use Objective-C , u may have to change ur opinion.

Atul : Great. But what of Java do they use. It could be implemented as a plugin or ActiveX object. Two benefits. One - it wouldn't have to come to my site each time I go to that page, 2- I could maintain a log on my harddisk .

Why are you so aggressively trying to scuttle Java? Aren't you interested in talking about something else a little more constructive? You could give us an overview of what's latest in India regarding the software industry since you are one of THE leading software people ther>

Atul: To give you one example , if you go to our site, you can send and receive e-mail to anyone in the world using different technologies.

Which site is this? I'm sorry if I missed it before..

Decoy : I am not trying to scuttle Java . All that I am saying is that people blindly follow the cult of Java . I moved away from Java even though maximum number of e-mails I receive today are regarding Java. Because of Java we are not seeing the other Internet Technologies in a rational way.

Nadu : http://www.neca.com/~vmis

Yah! I agree with Decoy, let's talk something constructive. I know nobody kicks a dead dog. But, we can leave our dog for a while and talk sthg elase.

Guys, I think our next chat should be on a more constructive note. Rather than sit around and indulge in software bashing let's have discussion on some aspects of a new technology. What do you all say?

Decoy: The Internet has changed the Indian Software industry. It has given Indians the access to technology that we didnot have earlier.

Mr. Mukhi! Can u make a comparative statement between Java and Active-X

What percentage of software programmers do you think are actively involved in developing Internet related code? Is VMCI involved? What kind of applications (Internet related) have you developed recenty?

Should you not look at Inferno and Limbo . They have the word distributed on every page of their manual plus the talks of TV set top boxes .

Mr. Mukhi, answering your question about not having to go to the site. Well, the company has a whole lot of it's database related to the customer and the parcels on the net itself. Hence you do not get have to go to your site. Also why should the information be updated on the hard disk at all. When it is available on the net, you just log in and get the info. It avoids duplication of data on the disk. For example : Internet banking. Info is on the net and readily available. A bank book routine or cheque deposit / writing routine would be a perfect application for Java. Quite a few of the Internet banks are using Java to write this applications. These applets are given free to the clients who log in and do their banking. This customer based application is what Java is very good at.

GUYS....I'm outta here! call me in again when you have something more interesting. With all due respects to Mr. Mukhi....please can we have someone else the next time?

NEXTSTEP: Learning ActiveX needs at times one lifetime. The learning curve is steep. So there will be fewer ActiveX programmers but good ones. You use C++ which lots of people are comfortable with. The same code is now distributed because of DCOM. I don't think you can compare ActiveX and Java. You can compare Java and C++.

Yeah...I'm off too. I don't find this discussion on the merits and demerits of Java very stimulating...

Now that I'm up nice and early might as well go for a good jog! The weather's perfect this morning...cool and crisp! See ya!

To All!( Sorry for the diversion) Is there a way to filter a mail ( I mean to say to stop an incoming mail from a particular user )

hi mukhi most of the internet users are on Unix. MS J++ won't work on unix. how you can say that java is dead?

Saying that Java is dead is like saying everything is dead when C++ was released. I think there is room enough for everyone to stay and find a nich. Guess one of the most important issue of the IT business is finding the need and satisfying it in the best way. And when needs differ, solutions will also differ. Even today there is an unbelievable amount of code written in Assembler, which people said will die over a decade ago.

Atul: The Internet is getting slower. Also if I wanted to do a spreadsheet analysis about my bank statement I need a copy on my disk. Maybe I need a hard copy for my tax purposes. I am most comfortable with things on my own harddisk than on someone else's.

Ooff! again C++,

NEXTSTEP: There are a large number of e-mail agents which do what you want. In fact there are a large number of pages that deal with agent technologies and there is also a mailing list.

Raju : We just discussed that issue.

One hour up. See you all sometime .

To do a spreadsheet analysis on your hard disk I am sure there is more than just that what one would do with their banking data. And probably you might use software like Quicken to do your accounting.

hi atul you are Atul athavale! please let me know

Can u tell us something regarding the new concepts ( hot ones other than java)

Let us discuss something more fundamental than trying to decide fate of a technology which we are obviously able to fully comprehend.

Sorry, what i mean is the technology that we are unable to fully comprehend.

mr. Mukhi! Can u send me the URL of the mailing list. Thanx in advance

Mr. Mukhi Are u there????? Don't go . NONONONO NO NO NO NO NO

HELOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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IS chat OVER????????????????????????

sorry for deviation HI ATUL! are you atul athavale? because my earlier PL is Atul. let me know please

MS J++ also built on Java language. like VC++ on C++. Then if java is dead means J++ is also dead.

hi what chat is over? how it will be over in short time

Hi raju ! where r u at??

hi nextstep! i am at a place from India

hi nextstep! i am at a place from India