The S S Ahluwalia Chat
'When Sonia Gandhi enjoys the good things of the Nehru-Gandhi legacy, she should bear the brunt of black spots on that legacy also'
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:42 IST)
Hello everybody, I am ready to take your questions.
ashokrai (Fri Nov 6 1998 4:44 IST)
I am terribly ashamed that over 3,000 people were massacred in Delhi and the criminals are still at large. This is unacceptable.
1. Why did you support the Congress all this time? You state that "there should be some reply" to your communication.
2. Please tell us as to why it has taken you so many years to demand a reply?
3. Has the influence of the Punjabi community -- especially in Delhi -- been reduced greatly because of the conflict between the Sikhs and the Punjabis (who are not all Sikhs) during all these terrible years of terrorism?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:46 IST)
ashokrai: It is not correct that I have taken a long time to decide. I have been pursuing the matter since 1984. And I am one of the pressure groups who pressurised the Congress high command to deny tickets to these accused leaders. Sometimes I succeeded, sometimes I failed. But the issue became very important when the cases started pouring into the lower courts in late 1995 and early 1996. At that time, the party president was either P V Narasimha Rao or Sitaram Kesri. They were not the custodians of the Gandhi-Nehru legacy. I wanted to put up these issues before the real custodian, that is Soniaji, of the Nehru-Gandhi legacy. And after she became Congress president, this was the first 31st October in her life as Congress president.
sondhi (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:20 IST)
Why have you woken up so late, Mr Ahluwalia? Is it because you hate Ms Gandhi?
Sanjay Naik (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:22 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, what is your anger against Soniaji?
Abhi Deo (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:33 IST)
What is your precise problem with Soniaji? Are you angry that she has ignored you?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:49 IST)
sondhi and Sanjay Naik: It is not correct to say that I have any personal grouse against Soniaji. But the issue, as I explained in my previous answer, is so relevant today. When a person who belongs to the Nehru-Gandhi family is heading the party, when she enjoys the good things of the Nehru-Gandhi legacy, she should bear the brunt of black spots on that legacy also.
Radha (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:26 IST)
But Mr Ahluwalia, there must be some reason for Soniaji to support H K L Bhagat and the others.
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:52 IST)
Radha: I was shocked to hear Delhi Pradesh Congress Committee president Shiela Dixit say that they are men of experience. What type of experience did she mean? The experience of stabbing the faith of those innocent Sikhs who used to be hard-core voters of the Congress party before the assassination of Mrs Gandhi? Or the experience of being skilful manipulators in the strict Machiavellian sense where the dictum of "everything is fair in politics" is adhered to?
S P Nanda (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:31 IST)
If you really cared for our brother Sikhs, you would have resigned after Operation Bluestar or worse, after the November 1, 1984, massacres.
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:54 IST)
S P Nanda: Although I joined the Congress as a student activist in 1967, and entered Parliament in 1986, during Operation Bluestar and the carnage of 1984, I have condemned these two acts in unequivocal terms. But, simultaneously, I never wanted the Sikhs to go out of the national mainstream. I worked for communal harmony throughout the country.
Arvind (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:44 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, what is your achievement in public life? Is there anything you can call your idea, which has been adopted by the government?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:57 IST)
Arvind: My experience as a parliamentarian over the last 12 years is that if you are number 1 in the ruling party, only then can you get your ideas implemented. Otherwise it is very difficult. Still, I have done a lot of work with physically handicapped and mentally retarded people. My proposals put forward in private member's bills were accepted and converted into legislation.
Arvind (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:59 IST)
So Mr Ahluwalia, you accept that the Congress is not democratic. Only the word of #1 counts. Unless the rest are sycophants, they cannot thrive.
sudhir (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:44 IST)
Do you feel the party you have worked for has let you down on the anti-Sikh riots? Why don't you quit and fight for social justice for your community rather than live in a glass house?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:1 IST)
Sudhir: As I have earlier said, since 1984 I am working for the rehabilitation of the Sikh destitutes who suffered in the 1984 riots. I was a member of the first committee, which was known as the G S Dhillon Committee. Many proposals were accepted and I am also fighting for these people in the Supreme Court. The cases are still pending in the Supreme Court.
Leaving the Congress party was not the solution then. Today again, it is not the solution. When my party is giving shelter to these accused persons, I have to fight it out in the party.
Arvind (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:49 IST)
The Congress is known as a party of sycophants. At least this is the public perception. What do you say to this?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:8 IST)
Arvind: I don't think the party is full of sycophants. Certainly there are a few sycophants, but as I believe Gandhiji said about the Congress: "Yesterday the Congress was unwittingly the servant of the nation, it was Khudai-Khudmatgar -- God's servant. Let it now proclaim to itself and the world that it is only God's servant, nothing more, nothing less. If it engages in an ungainly skirmish for power, it will find one fine morning that it's no more." Whenever we go against the essence of the above quote, we are called sycophants.
sainarasimhan (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:56 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, why don't you join hands with Rajesh Pilot and other like-minded Congress workers to make the Congress more responsive to issues that the country faces versus being a purely political party lusting for power?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:3 IST)
sainarsimhan: I have sent my letter to Rajesh Pilot also who is, incidentally, a Congress Working Committee member. If he agrees with my idea, he could have reacted by now.
Patil (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:5 IST)
There is a rumour that your attempt is to join the BJP. Is it true?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:10 IST)
Patil: When people cannot answer the questions I have raised, they try to blame me, saying that I am doing all these things at the behest of others, which is not correct.
Sridhar Hejib (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:9 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, do you think Sonia Gandhi lacks the charisma of Indira Gandhi or Rajiv Gandhi?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:12 IST)
Sridhar Hejib: You are the best judge!
Goldie (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:12 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia: Do you think militancy has lost ground in Punjab?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:14 IST)
Goldie: Nobody can say for sure, but it has subsided for the time being, because I feel "terrorism is an idea, you have to kill the idea by another idea. By killing a terrorist, you can't kill the idea, and if the idea is alive, terrorism will continue to take birth."
Vinita (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:14 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia: I have not come to India for the last five years. But what I read in NYT and other newspapers is that the Indian masses are unable to accept Ms Gandhi as the leader because she is Italian by birth. Is it true?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:16 IST)
Vinita: As you know, in a democratic set-up, all power comes from the people who are the real masters. They are the best judges to decide the fate of the next leader of the country.
Arvind (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:15 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, do you agree that Nehruvian socialism is the reason for India languishing in 139th position in the Human Development Index. Look at countries which got independence after India and are way ahead of us. Nehru was NOT a visionary. He was a daydreamer. He is solely responsible for all the poverty and misery in this country.
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:19 IST)
Arvind: Nehruvian socialism was very relevant in the early '50s and late '60s, because all the colonies were fighting against imperialism and wanted to share bread and butter in a new socialistic, democratic set-up. Of course, now, with the changed world order and the formation of the WTO, it needs lot of dynamic legislation to take India ahead.
Arvind (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:26 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, anyone who supports socialism does so due to a lack of understanding of economics. Please don't justify Nehru's Leftist leanings. We are all suffering for it while you live in bungalows.
Sanjai Kukreti (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:19 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, isn't terrorism also kept alive by our neighbour continuing to try to do whatever it can to fan the flames? Wasn't Bhindranwale really inflated by General Zia? Prior to that, he wasn't really anything, right?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:21 IST)
S Kukreti: I agree with you. Terrorism is a new phenomenon where, without disclosing your identity, a country can wage a proxy war in any corner of the globe.
Ragini (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:4 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, do you think the Congress can regain its glory under Soniaji's leadership?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:23 IST)
Ragini: The people are the real masters in a democratic set-up. Individual leaders do not matter, the ideology, policy, principles matter. You people are the best judge.
Sheroo (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:22 IST)
Hi, Mr Ahluwalia, got a chance to see you at Jurong Bird Park, Singapore, in Oct 1996. Welcome to this chat.
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:25 IST)
Sheroo: I have never been to Singapore. You might have seen me in Jodhpur Park, Calcutta.
Sheroo (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:24 IST)
Do you think the BJP govt is handling the Kashmir issue much better than the Congress? If not, can you state their faults?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:27 IST)
Sheroo: The ways of dealing with the situation in Kashmir differ from time to time. Because it depends not on the ruling party, but on the pressure mounted by the people sitting across the border.
Nidhi Sharma (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:24 IST)
I was in Delhi on October 31, 1984. And I witnessed all the killing of Sikhs. They were being massacred all over. But I don't recall what were you doing at the time. As a Hindu, I felt bad for the Sikhs and turned against the Congress. How could you, being a Sikh, not turn against these killers?
Radha (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:56 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, you should be ashamed to call yourself a Sikh after the Golden Temple incident. How could you continue in the Congress?
Arvind (Fri Nov 6 1998 7:56 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, your actions and words do not match. It appears as if your criticism of the perpetrators of the anti-Sikh riots is just a drama. Why do you not resign from the Congress if you really feel bad about it?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:29 IST)
Nidhi Sharma, Radha, Arvind: I have already answered a similar question.
Sheroo (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:25 IST)
Do you think it was right to have H K L Bhagat arrested? If he was guilty, why wasn't he arrested in 1984?
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:36 IST)
Sheroo: As I said earlier, the cases against these people started pouring into the lower courts in late 1995 and early 1996. Then he was arrested. As I said, nobody wanted to take action earlier, but during the latter part, under instructions of the Supreme Court, cases were tried. I am also fighting different cases in the Supreme Court.
Goldie (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:19 IST)
Mr Ahluwalia, I think you don't like Sonia Gandhi but are frightened to utter a word against her. Isn't it true that you too act like a bhigi billi in front of that Italian lady? If you have the guts, answer my question. I am sure you will avoid it like all hypocritical Congress leaders.
S S Ahluwalia (Fri Nov 6 1998 8:32 IST)
Goldie: It is not correct to say that I am afraid of anybody. If that were true, I would not have written so strongly to her.
Thank you all for responding to the chat show. I would like to conclude with the following statement: "The Sikhs who lost their loved ones in the 1984 riots have yet to regain their faith in Indian polity and judiciary simply because they are not getting justice from any corner of Indian society. They are also humans: they also cry and mourn over the deaths of their kith and kin who were made to die for reasons best known to the architects of the massacre, which was designed to teach them a lesson of being helpless minorities." I never wanted to make this a political issue, but unfortunately, since the leadership doesn't respond to issues raised by me, I was forced to raise it publicly. I need your support to get justice for the hapless, homeless, hopeless destitutes of the 1984 riots.
Continued
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